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Is Tim Cook Holding Apple Back? Faster MagSafe Coming, iPhone 17 Colors Leak, Google Pixel 10 Event

/ 01:14:09/E85 Download MP3
Stephen Robles:

You are not serious people. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. A bunch of topics. We're gonna be covering a lot of the succession things that happened last week, like Jeff Williams retiring this year, ex CEO stepping down. And is Tim Cook gonna be around for many more years, and is that a good or not so good thing?

Stephen Robles:

Apple's been nominated for 81 Emmys. The Google Pixel ten launch event is announced. I have an eye on that Fold seven. We most smart home devices are dead and a ton more. This episode is brought to you by BZGO and you, the members who support us directly.

Stephen Robles:

I'm one of your hosts, Steven Robles, and joining me after what feels like years, Jason Aiten. How's it going, Jason?

Jason Aten:

It's good. It probably doesn't feel as quite as long for our listeners because they only got the show, like, a day early. We recorded, like, six months early.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. That's right. Remember. That episode was recorded

Jason Aten:

before we baby is actually four now.

Stephen Robles:

That's right.

Jason Aten:

We've been the time we've recorded it.

Stephen Robles:

She did launch her studio setup thing, which is cool, though, and that that that that's happening. Do you know I actually gave you a hint in the intro. Do you know where that quote, you are not serious people is from?

Jason Aten:

I was pretty sure, and then you literally just said it. It's from Succession. I did watch Succession because there was a period of time when, Inc. Has this thing where they like to shows like that, they're like, oh, someone should follow it every week. They did this with Shark Tank and then, like, write about it and stuff.

Jason Aten:

And so I started doing it, and I'm like, I just don't have the time in my life to commit to watching this all the time because at that point, like, I was, like, three seasons in or something like that. And I'm like or or this show was, I'm like, I can't catch up on

Stephen Robles:

I mean, felt very apropos. Succession, Apple

Jason Aten:

Yeah. That's great.

Stephen Robles:

X, all the things. So we're gonna get into that. I have some five star review shout outs, some very kind words from Jonathan Potobovich from USA, where his favorite tech podcast, high praise. S c Moore NC from The USA, he said, what is spaces? And I don't know if that's trolling us or if he genuinely wanted to know.

Jason Aten:

We don't have time. We don't have we don't have trolls. We also don't have time for the no. I'm just kidding.

Stephen Robles:

We don't have time. Oh, I do wanna I just realized that for our personal tech segment, I wanna talk about MyFitnessPal versus FoodNow because I've been using it. I asked the Internet what's the best food tracking. Alright. So we're gonna get to that in a personal tech.

Stephen Robles:

Steven Patrick from The USA said lots of very nice words, even compared us to Renee Ritchie and Serenity Caldwell with if you're a real one, you remember the podcast that they did many years ago. Yeah. It did feel like the review was written by Chad Chibouti, but that's fine because he must have prompted it with some some right words. And Addy Bordoy from The UK, this might be my favorite review yet. Well, he gave us five stars and said not a bad show, to be fair.

Stephen Robles:

The best review. Not a

Jason Aten:

bad show. Amazing. I I have a question for you, Steven.

Stephen Robles:

Yes.

Jason Aten:

How far off do you think we are from the point at which saying likely chat GPT written will become a slur? Like, that's like an insult.

Stephen Robles:

I mean yeah. Well, we'll get into that because there's a lot of AI news this week and and

Jason Aten:

Alright.

Stephen Robles:

I don't know. I think well, anyway. Alright. Well, I'll save it. Listen.

Stephen Robles:

The biggest news. The biggest news of the week, it actually just dropped. I don't even know if you're aware, Jason. Apple launched a new emoji game in Apple News plus. That's Big news.

Jason Aten:

I can't believe I missed it.

Stephen Robles:

Big news. That's all I got for you there. So, yeah. New emoji game if you're an Apple News plus subscriber. But no.

Stephen Robles:

The bigger news, the biggest news, actually, one I'm most excited about is that there's going to be a new wireless charging standard and it's gonna be even faster.

Jason Aten:

I have news for you on this, but go ahead.

Stephen Robles:

Okay. Well, and I'm half joking that this is the biggest news of the week. But if you follow my channel, know I'm obsessed with chargers. And I if you listen to this podcast, you probably know because Jason's like, you have too many chargers. Chi two dot two.

Stephen Robles:

So right now we have Chi two chargers. That's what a lot of the three in ones you might get on Amazon from, like, Anker, from Basis, from Belkin, and there's MagSafe batteries that are Chi two. Many of them do not charge as fast or stay as cool as you would think, and not many are seem to be actual Qi two. You know, there's the Anker UltraSlim, which I still think is one of the best, but the Verge has been scouring the wireless power consortium database of devices, which I frequently re reference in my videos. And there's more there's now q 2.2 chargers being, approved there in the database, and q two dot two is supposedly going to charge up to 25 watts.

Stephen Robles:

Q two regular right now is maximum of 15 watts, rarely gets to that. So 25 watts possibly even up to 50 watt wireless charging via the MagSafe. UGREEN has announced a MagSafe battery that's gonna be Qi 2.2. There's a bunch of other devices in the database right now supposedly from Belkin and Basis and Anchor and Aukey. And so I'm very excited for Qi 2.2, maybe faster wireless charging, maybe more efficient MagSafe battery packs.

Stephen Robles:

And, yes, I will try every single one. What's your news?

Jason Aten:

Well, okay. So I told you about the that native union charger that I got. It's real slim.

Stephen Robles:

Yes.

Jason Aten:

It's real and I like it a lot. Well, they have updated it Oh. To now support g two.

Stephen Robles:

Oh, really? Didn't they

Jason Aten:

I don't know that they've updated it to to support g two two or whatever you just said, but I'm just trying to find the the press release I got. And I don't know if they sent it to me because I bought one of these or if they sent it to me because they sent it to me because I they wanted me to write about it. But if they send me another one, I will be happy to write about the new one. But that super slim one, the 5,000 milliamp hour battery that is it's made out of aluminum. I think you had one.

Jason Aten:

No. I don't think it's that one.

Stephen Robles:

It's the the 10,000 milliamp.

Jason Aten:

Active power bank one. And I'm trying I the one I found, it says it supports 15 watt. Is that the g two thing?

Stephen Robles:

Watt is g two. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. So there you go. It supports wireless charging of 15 watt. Now I know that's not 50 watts, but also I would never stick something that charges I mean, an iPhone can't charge wirelessly at 50 watts. Like Well,

Stephen Robles:

it can't even charge wired at 50 watts. I believe it

Jason Aten:

Right.

Stephen Robles:

It charges at 27 watts. Wired is like the fast charging. This looks like, I'll put this one in the show notes. This is Chi two five thousand milliamp hours and supposedly wireless charging up to 15 watts. See, I'll have to try this now, I have to test it.

Jason Aten:

And I'll just say that the the so the that's the re that's the classic one, but the the active one is the thin one that I was telling you about. Okay. And that one I love that charger. It's just so that would be the first one there. The first top on the other.

Jason Aten:

It's a good radio when I just point to

Stephen Robles:

No. No. I got it. Got it right here. It looks like it'll be in the show notes.

Jason Aten:

And so so I really, really like that wireless battery pack because it's it is thinner than the Apple one. Right? Like Right. Good. And now that it'll but, Steven, your complaint was just that it doesn't charge very fast at all.

Jason Aten:

It's like, whatever, seven and a half watts or something.

Stephen Robles:

Like this so here's been my experience. Any MagSafe battery that's 5,000 milliamp hours, even when they claim g two and fifteen watts, it charges slow and it gets really hot. And I imagine it's just a physics thing because these battery packs are so thin. And so the only ones that I find that charge like 10 watts ish or more are the 10,000 milliamp hour batteries. And those are the thicker ones that people don't prefer.

Stephen Robles:

But I do the test where I'll like once my I'll drain my phone down to like two or 3%. Then I put these battery packs on. I don't use my phone during the test. And you can see on the graphs, actually, if you go on your iPhone when you're charging and you have one of these battery packs on, you go to settings, battery, it will straight up give you a warning that this is a slow charger. And it will tell you that with a lot of these MagSafe battery packs.

Stephen Robles:

And so I'm curious if Qi 2.2 will actually allow smaller 5,000 power battery packs to charge faster and maybe not get as hot. So see, this is the problem. I should not have put this right at the beginning because I can literally talk for this entire episode about stinking MagSafe batteries.

Jason Aten:

It's fine. There's nothing else to talk about today, really.

Stephen Robles:

There's a ton. There's a ton. And I literally have so many right here. Oh, look. I do have the the native union one right here.

Stephen Robles:

This is one you're

Jason Aten:

talking about. It's I was just looking for it. It's so thin, though.

Stephen Robles:

It's really thin. And it's

Jason Aten:

I love it.

Stephen Robles:

It's the coolest designed one. I'll give you that too. Like, I like the little perforated back and stuff.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. But And I think it's fair. It's it's metal.

Stephen Robles:

It's metal. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

And the thing about a bit the battery pack, I would rather the battery pack be getting a little bit warm than my phone, to be honest. If it's dissipating heat, I like that it has this metal basically, it has a heat sink on the outside. Like That

Stephen Robles:

is true.

Jason Aten:

It's just dissipating that heat using passive cooling.

Stephen Robles:

And I'll I'm gonna give Native Union props because they used to just kinda be like the Best Buy brand that was like pretty male, like generic or whatever, and they're really stepping it up with like nice quality stuff like chargers. And they make two and three in one chargers now too that look cool.

Jason Aten:

So Yeah. And, I mean, they elevate the brand by putting the word Paris underneath it. I don't know why it says Paris, but I think that if you I think that if you put pair because my my my Delsea suitcase is also says Paris on it.

Stephen Robles:

Mine does too. The Delsea suitcase.

Jason Aten:

I don't know why.

Stephen Robles:

Isn't the Delsea suitcase, like, one of the best ones? Like, just best value.

Jason Aten:

By far.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. By far.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. Do put that give us don't even respond to this because I know that you're all gonna think Tumi is the answer or Samsonite or whatever, Rimowa or whatever. But Delsea

Stephen Robles:

Delsea is it.

Jason Aten:

By far the best.

Stephen Robles:

Delsea is it. Yeah. That says Paris. They should Native Union should just put a grand like Milan or Nice. They should just do random cities on their battery packs.

Stephen Robles:

Now one other thing before we get to some of the succession news, back to this opening quote. OpenAI posted this on x just yesterday, and they have a livestream today at 1PM eastern. So it's gonna be after this episode publishes, but maybe we can pontificate what this could mean. There's been a lot of AI browser stuff coming out recently. Perplexity's Comet browser is out for, like, invites.

Stephen Robles:

It's not publicly available, but if you get an invite, you can use that. Do you think this is already maybe the OpenAI browser announcement, or might this be something else? There's a little mouse moving around in this video. Maybe. I'm just saying.

Jason Aten:

Or

Stephen Robles:

They're launching an actual mouse, an actual wireless

Jason Aten:

That's probably what it is. Maybe that's what Johnny Ive has been working on. That is the AI device is a mouse.

Stephen Robles:

It's gonna look just like the magic mouse, but the ports

Jason Aten:

are gonna be on

Stephen Robles:

the front.

Jason Aten:

Nope. 0% chance. It's gonna look like it's gonna look like you're, I don't even know, but

Stephen Robles:

If it wirelessly charged, that'd be cool. If I had a magic mouse, would be wireless. Anyway, you think it's the browser? What's what's the over under on this being the browser today?

Jason Aten:

Oh, what's the over under? I don't actually know how to figure out what that means in this context. More or I think what percent yeah. Based on that video that we're looking at, I would say it's a probably a 57% chance that it's a browser, but, I mean, I don't know. I

Stephen Robles:

Well, it's just because there's a mouse. We don't have to do too much tea leaf reading, but if it was like a new model, which typically that's what a lot of OpenAI announcements are, it's like, we have a new model and it does this, but to have like a little mouse moving around as though you're clicking on something like you would do in a web browser, No. It feels it feels pretty browser y.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. It does I mean, the way the mouse is moving around, it looks like a very up res version of an Atari Pong game or something. Like, it's just sliding around.

Stephen Robles:

People were people were really leading the tea leaves in, like, they basically did a connect the dots to where the mouse was pointing, and they there's a shape that gets drawn. I don't know what kind of out of sorcery it is to to I don't know what I don't know what the shape was.

Jason Aten:

Has there ever been a point in your life where you had time to do that kind thing where you just sit and look at these announcements and you're like, let me plot the points of where the mouse cursor is. It's like Oh,

Stephen Robles:

here it I'll show I don't know. I'll I'll show you, and then maybe you guys will have an hour after this episode publishes to figure out if it's legit. These are the points, I guess. I don't know what that means.

Jason Aten:

So I don't know that it means anything.

Stephen Robles:

That was that was, like, a total random constellation. I'll put that as the chapter. So if you're listening, you can wander along with

Jason Aten:

us. Is that like the is that the Big Dipper? Oh. Is that Ursa Major? Maybe that's the name of the browser, Ursa Major.

Stephen Robles:

Oh.

Jason Aten:

It's it's definitely No.

Stephen Robles:

I bet you before. It could be Orion. Although Orion.

Jason Aten:

But there's already some things that are called Orion.

Stephen Robles:

Oh, that is true. Our our friends at, Luke's camera have the Orion app where you can use your iPad as like a HDMI display. So

Jason Aten:

Doesn't Meta have an Orion

Stephen Robles:

something like that? That's the code for the glasses. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

Jason Aten:

Okay. Here's a question though. Would you we debated Brave versus Safari. Would you use an OpenAI browser?

Stephen Robles:

Listen, I I'm all in on Safari. I use Brave for Riverside, but I'm I'm getting pulled in by the hype. And I actually texted someone who said they had Perplexity invites and I'm going to try the Perplexity one. And when the OpenAI browser launches, I'm gonna try it on day one. I am very curious.

Stephen Robles:

I am so sick of seeing the Google open in browser pop up, which I post on social media, and thousands of people can identify that it's I said every time someone sees this pop up, an angel loses its wings, which is accurate.

Jason Aten:

I wrote about it.

Stephen Robles:

I know you did a whole article about it.

Jason Aten:

It made me so mad. I was like, forget it, Google. Yeah.

Stephen Robles:

So I'm gonna try I'm gonna try it because I'm I'm curious. I've also been doing more like, I wanna find something on this website or webpage and command f either may give me too few or too many results. And if an OpenAI browser would basically let me type in a chatbot and say, hey, find this on this page, or is this on this page? And it just does it for me, I would I think I would do that. So I'm gonna try it.

Stephen Robles:

How about you?

Jason Aten:

I will definitely try it. I probably won't switch because I already use Brave with JetGPT as this default search engine. So, like, what?

Stephen Robles:

You can use it as default.

Jason Aten:

Mean

Stephen Robles:

I know yet. I have to change that.

Jason Aten:

You knew that. We talked about

Stephen Robles:

I know we talked

Jason Aten:

about this. Road about it.

Stephen Robles:

I never changed it.

Jason Aten:

But, I mean, I guess there's a difference if, like I don't know. Is this because, like, Edge has that with with, Bing whatever their thing is called where it's like No. But I'm just saying, like, it has a sidebar where you can ask. If you're looking at a web page that has financial stuff on it, you can be like and and Google has Gemini built in. So, like, your Google Sheets, you can ask it to tell you stuff about it.

Jason Aten:

I mean, that kind of thing would be super interesting because right now, I end up screenshotting it and dumping it into GPT. So if they had a browser, maybe. But maybe I would only use it for that kind of thing, like, for for dedicated purposes. I don't think I would just use it. I definitely would not use it to, like, check my bank account.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. That's true. No. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't No way.

Stephen Robles:

I wouldn't move I wouldn't move on that. We have to catch up on some news that happened after we recorded last week. One, Linda Yaccarino, the previous CEO of X, stepped down. Now the ex CEO, no succession plan in place. There was no one announced to be taking over for her.

Stephen Robles:

She lasted two years in the role. And Elon Musk had a very

Jason Aten:

Thank you for your contributions.

Stephen Robles:

He said thank you for that was his whole thank you. So I feel like I mean, Elon Musk has just gotta be, like, acting as shadow CEO. Right? I mean, there's probably

Jason Aten:

No. Elon Musk was actually acting as CEO. Because Linda Yaccarino's job was basically to get back the advertisers. Right? But they needed the only way that advertisers were going to give consideration to advertising on X again is if somebody other than Elon Musk was the CEO.

Jason Aten:

So she had to like, she needed they needed to give her that credibility in that sort of a position. If they just called her the chief revenue officer, I don't think it Yeah. That it would have gone the same direction. It turns out that the way they got the advertisers back is they just threatened to sue them for violating first amendment rights or something for not giving them money. Like, literally, that's what they've been doing.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. So I've also well, I I don't know I don't know if I wanna talk about this for a long time, but I I do wonder too if

Jason Aten:

What he's saying is he has thoughts, but he would prefer that none of you get mad at him for having

Stephen Robles:

No. Not about this in particular, but I've just been seeing a lot more Grok. Like, people I've seen more people talking about Grok, obviously, on X and not really any place else. But, you know, there was the the news earlier this week where there's, like, a little AI digital something or other that's in Grok, and I'm like, AI companions. And both Kylie Robertson at Wired, at The Verge, and then Casey Newton, they wrote about it.

Stephen Robles:

Talking about it's a little it's a little weird. And I was curious because someone posted on x, gling.ai, one of the apps I use for video editing. They had this thread and they were talking about how Grok four is really good at video ideas and title and description generation for YouTube. And I was like, I I don't use any other chatbot except for ChatGPT. Like, I'd have all my workflows through ChatGPT mostly because it works with shortcuts, and that's how I do a lot of the workflows.

Stephen Robles:

But I was like, if Grok four is that good, and they had, like, screenshots of different prompts, and I was like, okay. It looks really good. Let me try it. Turns out Grok four, which is, like, the good one, you have to pay $30 a month for access to that. So it does seem like maybe they're trying to pivot more towards that.

Stephen Robles:

But, also, I just see a lot of threads on X now where there'll be something posted that is skeptical whether it's true or not. And then right under it, the first reply, someone mentions at grok, and they're like, is this true? And I guess that's something that you can do on x. You can just prompt grok directly in a thread by mentioning it, and then you'll see, you know, the answer a lot of times underneath it. So I don't know.

Stephen Robles:

I I just tangentially related. I I think it's interesting. I don't know if it's good or not because I don't use Grok at all and I didn't pay for it. So

Jason Aten:

Yeah. And I've tried to use Grok and every time I do, it tries to sell me on Twitter's premium subscription or something. I'm like, nah.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. So I don't know. All that to say, I don't who knows what x is who who knows what x be doing? I did see a bunch of creators on thread saying that they're now monetized, which I am not still, and I'm just bitter about that.

Jason Aten:

You're just putting that out there into

Stephen Robles:

the world just in case anyone's listening. Just throwing that out there. I mean, I do a lot of good work on there. Some of my best writings there on threads. Just no.

Stephen Robles:

I'm just kidding. Just throwing that out. Alright. Another succession thing, and this was big news after we recorded last week. Jeff Williams, Apple's COO, chief operating officer is retiring after twenty seven years at the company.

Stephen Robles:

There was talk about him being the successor to Tim Cook, several years ago. Obviously, is not the case. He's going to be replaced by Sabik Khan, which, was one of the vice presidents of the company. He's been Sabik Khan has been at Apple for, like, what, thirty plus years or something like that also. So long standing, you know, Apple high ranking official.

Stephen Robles:

But interesting that he's going. Now there was some talk about, well, who might be the successor to Tim Cook. John Turnis, who you've seen in a lot of Apple keynotes talking about, like, the m one max and stuff like that possibility. But this brought up the whole, is Tim Cook retiring? Like, when is that going to happen?

Stephen Robles:

And there was, Mark Gurman over at Bloomberg saying that there's actually no internal signs of Cook preparing to retire, comparing him to some other long standing up in age CEOs like Bob Iger, the 74 year old CEO of Disney, which Tim Cook is 60

Jason Aten:

Five. He turned 65 in November.

Stephen Robles:

Tim Cook is 65. Then JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon, 69 years old. And that he might be at Apple, Tim Cook, for years to come and no succession plan in place. And you had a great article about him and AI, which we'll talk about, but I just want to reference the interview he did with Dua Lipa, which was the one time he actually mentioned when he might retire. And this interview was posted almost two years ago.

Stephen Robles:

It was in November 2023. And in this interview, which is I think one of the few interviews he's done like this where it's actually like a podcast, you see the video, and he's very supposedly candid that he would be retiring in the next ten years. He said that in this interview that sometime in the next ten years, he would he would retire, which means eight years from now. But that was two years ago, and Jeff Williams was still COO. So maybe that has changed, and maybe he'll be there for a long time.

Stephen Robles:

And maybe that'll be good, and maybe it won't be so good. I don't know. But you had a great article, today talking about about how we might be affecting Apple's AI game. And so

Jason Aten:

Well, let me say something about

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. Go ahead.

Jason Aten:

I think that Tim Cook's specific, I Tim Cook did not say, I'm gonna retire in the next ten years. He was asked about it, and I think he said something like, will I still be here in ten years? Probably not. Right? I mean, everyone interpreted that as like, oh, Tim Cook is announcing that he's retiring in the next ten years.

Jason Aten:

But I think he's like, ten years is a really long time, and I don't I don't see myself still doing this in ten years. But I and that might seem like the same thing, but I actually think it's an important distinction because what it means is I mean, the way he phrased it certainly gives the impression that there isn't really a imminent plan for him to leave. Right. But, also, he doesn't plan to stay forever. Right?

Jason Aten:

Okay. So Yeah. No. No. No.

Jason Aten:

But, I mean, like, he's Yeah. Yeah. He he is imagining that there is an end in sight, and he believes that that over under is less than 10 from now. So, like, that is an important thing. And everyone automatically starts to think about, okay.

Jason Aten:

Well, if the most obvious successor is Jeff Williams, who's only a few years younger than Tim Cook, And in ten years would be older than Tim Cook is now, he has to be thinking of retiring sooner. So because it doesn't make any sense to replace Tim Cook in three years with a CEO who's older than he is now. Like, right, like, that kinda it's like you need to you want somebody who's younger. And so then people start thinking like, okay. Well, John Turnis might be the next CEO.

Jason Aten:

I don't really know for sure if that's just speculation. I don't I mean, John Turnis, he seems like a real gregarious, charismatic Sure. Guy. Does he have any and maybe he does. So don't give me like, does he have any the things that CEOs need to do is very different than the head of hardware engineering.

Jason Aten:

Like Right. Very different. Right? Even even Steve Jobs was not the head of hardware engineering. Right?

Jason Aten:

Like, he he was not that was not his thing. He was, like, visionary, cook as an operations person. If we start to see John Turnis in the next couple of years take on different types of roles as well, that would but, like, the thing a CEO does most publicly besides talk at the keynote events is talk to investors. Right? Talk to

Stephen Robles:

other people. But here's here's what I will you know, this is the other part of the conversation is the and we've talked about it before in relation to like Airbnb and Brian Chesky and founder mode. Does the next Apple CEO need to be a product person? And I think yes. Because Steve Jobs was the product person, and his strength was to be the visionary to see the next device to, I think, James Lee, he alluded to, like, you need to tell the customer what they want, basically.

Stephen Robles:

You know, no one knew what you know, wanted an iPod until it existed and then they realized. And just the idea of a thousand songs in your pocket, the value was immediate to immediately understandable by people. Like, here's the thing, thousand songs in your pocket.

Jason Aten:

And this was at a time when a thousand songs was a lot of songs because you had to actually buy them on hard you know, like physical media.

Stephen Robles:

Right.

Jason Aten:

So a that was like more songs than most people were going to be putting

Stephen Robles:

on it. And I was actually I was trying to explain to someone the other day about, you know, what is different about Apple's presentations now because they knew I went to Dub Dub. And I was I was explaining, like, they just do video they just play a video now. And I was recalling some of the Steve Jobs announcements. And, like, when you think back to the iPad, that entire keynote was Jobs.

Stephen Robles:

It was just Jobs on stage. He announced it. He slammed Netbooks in that keynote. And then he just sat in a chair and scrolled the New York Times on the iPad. Yeah.

Stephen Robles:

Like, that's just all he did. Yet he was still charismatic. He was able to explain why someone will love this, what it's for, why it's the next thing. And just be I mean and, obviously, Tim Cook is extremely talented looking at the profitability of Apple, although NVIDIA has far surpassed now at $4,000,000,000,000 market cap, almost a trillion dollars more than Apple. But I think for the next phase of Apple, however long that is, and with the rise of AI, and this alludes to your article, that I think there needs to be more of a product person at the helm.

Stephen Robles:

Even if it's someone with a mix of skills, I think that has to be one of the big ones. One that is is, I don't know, forward thinking and, I don't know, thinking about what is next in technology. Even what is more interesting. Like, I had on our list to talk about like the Fold seven because I've never tried a folded phone. I know you've had some in the past, but I'm looking at these videos of the Samsung, whatever the terrible name is, the Samsung Galaxy Fold seven Ultimate.

Stephen Robles:

And it looks so cool. And I'm like, it gets thin enough now. This is this seems like an actual new, maybe even useful form factor. And there's lots of rumors that Apple might do a folding phone or whatever, but I'm like, man, this is this feels like something different. This feels new, and there's a lot of excitement on social media about it.

Stephen Robles:

And I'm like, that needs to be part of Apple's oeuvre right now of what what it feels like when you think of Apple. Like right now, when I think of Apple, I don't think they're trying something new. They're doing something vastly different because they have they've played it safe for for a lot of years, feel like, but I don't know.

Jason Aten:

Okay. So here's the thing. You gave me an idea, but I don't know if I'm going be able to work this into an article. So I'll just say it

Stephen Robles:

here now. Okay. Good.

Jason Aten:

But I'm going make a note just in case. Okay. First of all, my question is, and I want you to answer this in a second. What do you mean when you say Apple needs a product person? What is a product person?

Jason Aten:

And let me just be clear about why I'm pushing back on that. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but people often say because, you know, Steve Jobs, he was a product person. No. Steve Jobs was singular. Like, Steve Jobs, there is no there will never be another Sure.

Jason Aten:

Steve Jobs because of the moment he was in, the vision he had at the time that he had it, the company he built around him. You you can't it would be like if we if we you and I were running a record label, and we've been signing all these, like, bands and all this stuff. And we're like, you know what we really need? We need another Taylor Swift. It's like, no.

Jason Aten:

There there there is no other Taylor Swift. You cannot there are plenty of successful female artists. Like, don't get me wrong, but Taylor Swift is singular. You're never gonna just manufacture someone else who's going to have the heiress tour that's gonna somebody may surpass it someday, but it isn't gonna be because a bunch of people sat in a room are like, we need a Taylor Swift so we can have an Eris tour. Like, you don't that's not how you get to that point.

Jason Aten:

And so anyone who is thinking, like, what the Apple needs a product person because look at the stuff that they did. Apple has been exponentially more successful post Steve Jobs than it was with Steve Jobs, but most of it is because the culture of Steve Jobs has extended through and Tim Cook has been a guardian of that. I don't think I don't I think this is underrated the extent to which Tim Cook has attempted to preserve the culture and the ethos of Apple that was that was put in place by Steve Jobs. He has not advanced that in any directions differently necessarily other than maybe the services business. I think you can which is just purely, print money, you know, cash checks.

Jason Aten:

But I don't know that I don't I think we need I don't think it's a binary thing. It's like, do we have a product person or an an operations money person? I think we need the whatever the third thing is for Apple because it's gonna be entering a very different phase. There was a great conversation on upgrade this week between, Mike and Jason Snell Mike Hurley and Jason Snell talking about this same kind of a topic. And just the idea that, like, I don't know that what Apple needs next like, is John Turner's a product person?

Jason Aten:

I mean, he's a hardware engineer, but that's not what Steve Jobs was. That's not what Right. You know? And the I think it also goes back to, like, there was this partnership between Steve Jobs and the people like, most of the people still in the senior leadership are, like, Steve Jobs lieutenants.

Stephen Robles:

Right. But I think it was their relationship with Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive that interestingly created some of the most influential products.

Jason Aten:

Jobs and Tim Cook? You Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive would have not been able to do the iPhone had Tim Cook not that that I was reading the Apple in China book. Like, there's just it's underrated the extent to which Apple does not exist without that linchpin piece.

Stephen Robles:

So when you when I say a product person, I understand that Steve Jobs did not invent the iPhone out of whole cloth. You know, it's not like he came out of or walked into a boardroom and said, here's the iPhone. No. I just need someone to physically make it. You know?

Stephen Robles:

He he's not a there was a team of people behind all of that. But when I say a product person, I think someone who has a better finger on the pulse of how people use technology and how people will use their products in the future and how people will use their products that aren't that don't even are not out yet. And I and I think of examples of, like, in the creative selection book by Ken Cusienda, who developed the keyboard on the iPhone and iPad or one of the members of that team. And some of the other stories you hear about Steve Jobs is that they Steve Jobs would be presented something. Like when Ken Cacienda was working on the iPad virtual touch keyboard, they would show Steve Jobs the keyboard.

Stephen Robles:

He would use it for a little while, not say anything for a while, and then say something like, this is out of place. Or in one specific story, Kankiciana had two different versions of the keyboard or keys had this kind of dual function. And Steve Jobs was like, that's too confusing. Choose one or the other. But for users, it needs to be one one or the other.

Stephen Robles:

And so I think that kind of intuition for how normal people will interact with technology because that's something even I would struggle with because you know, when it comes to how do normal people use technology, normal, I mean, like, non nerds, sometimes it's it's difficult to extrapolate. Like, how is someone on their iPhone if I tell them swipe down to control center, do they know what that means? Like, do they know

Jason Aten:

What is spaces?

Stephen Robles:

Or what is what is spaces? And so I it feels like Steve Steve Jobs, while he was singular, had a skill of knowing how people would use and do use technology and we're able to make products that fit into that but also open the doors to, like, new use cases that show someone that this is a valuable thing. And, you know, Tim Cook has largely made probably a lot of decision a lot of decisions on Apple Watch since it's come out. And you could say like, yeah. I think that he has intuitively put focused more on the fitness features, which has become, you know, a major part of the Apple Watch.

Stephen Robles:

But when I say product person, I think someone who can understand outside of the Apple bubble, how will this product, how will this software update, how will this feature, how will this how will people interact with this in the real world so we can make it the most valuable, the most useful? And I feel like we've talked about the chatbots and how Apple has refused to make one. You know, you hear Craig Federighi and Greg Jasbach in these interviews saying like, well, nobody wants really a chatbot. What they want is this. And it's like, well, that feels like they don't have a finger on the pulse because a lot of people are using AI chatbots and they totally miss that.

Stephen Robles:

And so that's an example I think where would Steve I don't like doing this, but like, Steve Jobs have made an Apple intelligence chatbot? I don't know, but I feel like he would have had and maybe someone else who's more product focused would have thought this is a product that people want and actually use, and so we need to be there as well, or we need to figure out how to improve on it. So I guess that's what I mean.

Jason Aten:

And I don't think okay. So there's a couple of This is actually a good conversation. This is really good. I didn't think we were gonna spend this much time, but I actually really like this. Because one, I don't think we've seen any evidence at all that that's John Turnis.

Jason Aten:

Like No. He's a hardware engineer. Right. He is not the product designer person. Right?

Jason Aten:

Right. There is a hardware designer. Is it Molly? I can't think of what their name is at the moment, but, like, it's the opposite to Alan Dye. Right?

Jason Aten:

He's a human inter user interface whatever, and there's another person who's a hardware design person. It's the person who whoever replaced Evan Tankey. Right? Like, so I feel like there is someone at Apple, but there's they're not anywhere near the the top of the senior leader. They're not even on the leadership page is, I guess, what I'm trying to say.

Stephen Robles:

So Well, I was on leadership page trying

Jason Aten:

to No. There's nobody on the leadership page related to design at all. Like, that's not even a thing that which is a weird thing at Apple. Like, who who is this person

Stephen Robles:

Not even Allen Dye. He's not even on No.

Jason Aten:

He's not even an SVP.

Stephen Robles:

I didn't

Jason Aten:

even he's just a VP of human interface design or whatever. So what I'm trying to say, though, is, like, first of all, Apple is a $3,000,000,000,000 company. So you are not going to put someone in charge of it who is not experienced at running a three like, those skills are just different at this point. Right? When Steve Jobs was running Apple, it was like a $300,000,000,000 company, and he had Tim Cook.

Jason Aten:

It's just a very, very different thing. And the phase at which Steve Jobs influential was when it was going from zero to that. Right? And so there was so much more room. And this is the analogy.

Jason Aten:

I don't know if this bears out, but I'm just gonna say it. It's like you're an explorer, and and you come across there's all of this land. And Steve Jobs was incredible. It'd be like, the post office goes over there, and the house should go over there, and then whatever goes and what we're saying to Tim Cook is like, why aren't you building more different kinds of buildings? And so at some point, the question is like, what if there's just actually no more land?

Jason Aten:

Now I don't think we're at, like, the end game of technology, but we but the thing is the the iPhone and the Watch were pretty much unfarmed ground or whatever. I'm mixing some metaphors here. Right? There was bunch of bad smartphones. And then but the iPhone came along at a time when a couple of things suddenly became possible, like the the screens, mobile Internet was fast enough.

Jason Aten:

Like, you couldn't have had the iPhone sooner than that. Right? Right. Like, you just couldn't And

Stephen Robles:

the first one didn't have three g Internet, so it was like just And the mobile

Jason Aten:

Internet sucked on the first one anyway. Yeah. We were barely on that point. But we're at a we're at a very different place now and people are, like, really mad. They're like, why hasn't Tim Cook made anything new?

Jason Aten:

And here's the thing. Like, the Apple Watch and AirPods are actually phenomenal. The AirPods on their own would be like a fortune 300 company.

Stephen Robles:

But

Jason Aten:

Just the AirPods.

Stephen Robles:

But that is not a huge innovation breakthrough. Like, wireless headphones as a category.

Jason Aten:

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. At the time they were, every wireless headphone had a wire between the headphones at

Stephen Robles:

the time. Bluetooth headsets existed for ten years before that.

Jason Aten:

Like But they weren't but but hold on. Like, it is actually a huge they were a huge breakthrough because no one else had figured out how to put two separate things in your ears and keep them in sync. That was a much bigger accomplishment than people realize, and there's a reason that you see AirPods everywhere. And then they've they've elevated that, like, with the noise cancellation. They elevated it now with the hearing aid assistance and stuff like that.

Jason Aten:

So I agree with you, but that's because things you put in your ear were not nearly as massive of a computing platform as the screen you hold in your hand.

Stephen Robles:

Right.

Jason Aten:

So they that's but AirPods is, like, $30,000,000,000. It's like It's huge. Own. It's it's bigger than eBay. I don't

Stephen Robles:

know if not true. And one other point I wanted to make because you were saying, you know, Steve Jobs excelled in those times where it was not a valuable company and then made it a valuable company. One of the things he did during those times was identify what of the product line at Apple was not serving, was not helping, basically. And one of the big things he did was simplify the product offerings so that they could focus on the products that make the biggest difference, whether it the iMac and then the iPad, iPod and things like that. And so a product person, another aspect, I think, is someone who can say what are the products that are that we need to focus on or the product categories.

Stephen Robles:

For instance, maybe, I know that maybe this is not a app not great, but maybe it's time that the Mac Pro not be a focus of what Apple is doing just because of the nature of computing and AI and, you know, it's a various you know, whatever. And maybe they still sell it or whatever, but development. And the car, like, that was a thing that probably should have stopped being worked on years before Apple actually stopped. And that was something, again, Steve Jobs, maybe he would have been he maybe he would have made the call that much earlier to say, this is a dead end. This is not and this might be kind of the pie in the sky nostalgia.

Stephen Robles:

But at the end of every keynote, Steve Jobs would be like, what is Apple? We're at the intersection of liberal arts and technology. And he would always talk about how what we make our tools to help people be creative. We want to help people make other things. It was a very aspirational vision, which is, I feel like, I don't know, maybe not something you hear as much from Apple anymore.

Stephen Robles:

Like that core vision is maybe a little more nebulous now. And I don't know. I feel like whenever Steve Jobs said it, you believed it and the products reflected that, whether it was GarageBand or iMovie or whatever. And that I don't know. It just it feels a little lost.

Stephen Robles:

And so a product guy who is focused back on, okay. We're going to make products that do x, y, and z. We want to have the products that make AI the most accessible to the most people and are the easiest to use. Because honestly, like, another thing Apple has been great at is making something that's either difficult or complex that's hard or technology that's inaccessible useful for more people. Like, GarageBand and iMovie were incredible tools and still are.

Stephen Robles:

But, like, I use those tools for years to record concerts and to that was my first foray into edit you know, video editing. And it was because the those pieces of software were accessible. Like, design of those products, how they functioned, it made it accessible to me and to a whole generation of people. And so, like, that mindset of how do these products affect people, how can people use these, I think that's that's what we need from the next person.

Jason Aten:

But all of those things were things that existed that were solved in really complicated ways, and they were able to like, what are we what is left for that? I mean, calendar invites, I guess. Well, is that where we're at?

Stephen Robles:

That's why that's why there needs I mean, I we're speaking as though this person exists somewhere, but that the person is enough of a forward thinker that they know the answer to that question because I don't, which is why I guess I won't be the next CEO.

Jason Aten:

But but I mean, knew that movie editing existed. We knew that audio editing existed and Apple made that accessible. I'm I'm curious, like, literally, what are the things that are that that are not accessible to people today that are on the equivalent of, like, GarageBand music versus Avid systems or, you know

Stephen Robles:

I mean, using AI in an effective way. Like, there are thousands of companies whose whole business is packaging OpenAI's API in different ways to make it more accessible, whether it's repurposing video or whether it's summarizing things. Like, there's whole businesses just based on that. Just basically making prompts to ChatGPT, which is a very, like, computery language type thing. And so it almost feels like, man, Apple could step in and say, you here are these powerful AI tools, but in an accessible way.

Stephen Robles:

Because, like, my family, people I know personally, they're not using ChatGPT. Like, they they just like, they don't know, like, how would it even integrate into their workflow? But if Apple had instead made the decision to integrate into Safari, a large language model, where when there's someone's looking at a recipe web page, they can just tap a button and in addition to reader and content blockers, it had just give me the recipe. Like, they had made it Sure. That level.

Stephen Robles:

That I feel like is a product decision that someone could have made that that would have changed Apple's relationship with AI, and I think their positioning in that landscape today.

Jason Aten:

Well, and interestingly, the Mac is an exception because the Mac was, like, the first accessible well, no. Actually, it's not an exception. Okay. I think the first smartphone was technically, like, or the first cell phones were, like, nineteen ninety four ish or so. Like, you know, the first smartphones were there's IBM had something in, 1994 that they called the smartphone.

Jason Aten:

The iPhone was twenty three years later or whatever. Right? Or no. Thirteen years later. 02/2007.

Jason Aten:

Right? I can't do that. It's too early for me.

Stephen Robles:

I just remember StarTek smartphones is the first memory I had.

Jason Aten:

Well, okay. And the Apple Watch was not the first smartwatch. Right? AirPods were, like you said, not the first Bluetooth thing. I did just just wanna say about AirPods.

Jason Aten:

Interesting stat. Okay. I I don't know exactly because Apple doesn't tell you exactly how much AirPods revenue is, but it's somewhere between, like, $2,025,000,000,000 dollars. Right? Lots of money.

Stephen Robles:

Lot of money.

Jason Aten:

Just on AirPods. They're estimated by the end of, like, 2026 to be as much as a $100,000,000,000 or, like, the next three or four years, which would be roughly ten to twelve years after AirPods came out. Do you know how long it took for the iPhone to go from zero to a $100,000,000,000 a year?

Stephen Robles:

Oh, twelve years.

Jason Aten:

Ten years. So same timeline.

Stephen Robles:

Same timeline. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

Insane. We don't think about that. Sure. But the AirPods are an insane thing. So I'm just I'm just saying, like, they didn't feel as transformational as the iPhone, but that's because the iPhone is Taylor Swift.

Jason Aten:

It's singular. It's like, it was the perfect form factor. So, like, the idea that we penalize the current Apple for not coming up with the there just might not be any more land. There may not be

Stephen Robles:

another one. Well, I wanna get you to get more into your article because maybe AI is that thing that they

Jason Aten:

are Okay.

Stephen Robles:

They are missing the boat on.

Jason Aten:

But on the on the smartphone Yeah. The Bluetooth headphones, the Mac timeline, Apple has like thirty years to figure out AI.

Stephen Robles:

I don't know. We don't know if it's the same timeline though. Like that's that's

Jason Aten:

Right. But all I'm saying is the things Apple has done the best came twenty years in. They were they redef so so audio mixing, the GarageBand had been around for, what, a long time. Like, very Beatles were record like, they were recording music a long time ago. I know.

Jason Aten:

Know. But even on a computer interface. So what I'm trying to say is, like, app Apple has revolutionized mature industries, and AI is definitely not a mature industry. So what I it it as you were talking, it actually made me less surprised that Apple doesn't know what to do because what they do is they they see the mature version of it, they're like, you guys, this could be so much easier. But it's hard and and that was Steve Jobs' gift.

Jason Aten:

Steve Jobs didn't invent the iPhone out of whole cloth. Be like, there's no there's no cell phones. What if there was cell phones? No. I mean, they're had they didn't even they didn't build a wireless network.

Jason Aten:

Right? They they're all of that had to exist. And then they're like, what if we just made it easier? And so AI, I think don't get me wrong. Apple has to have a better solution, but it actually leads right into my article.

Jason Aten:

I don't think Apple should be spending any effort on trying to build AI.

Stephen Robles:

Okay. Well, we have to get to that. The last thing I'll say before, because we have a sponsor now. It's way past the midway point. No.

Stephen Robles:

This is great. This is great. I think one of the best product people right now is the guy in the basement, Johnny Saruji, making the m chips. Like, he is a 100% an engineer, 100% a hardware guy. But when you think of how people interact with products, he is making chips, the whole m series of chips, where the normal people never has to think about a chip again.

Stephen Robles:

That feels like someone who made a product that is tailored to the general public. It's like, you know what? Now you can buy any M series Mac chip, and you know it's gonna be powerful enough for whatever you want. And like Okay.

Jason Aten:

There are actually two product people.

Stephen Robles:

Okay.

Jason Aten:

Neither of them work at Apple. Okay. And neither of them will ever be CEO of Apple. And now I'm not comparing either of these people to Steve Jobs, but they are two people in the tech industry that I can think about

Stephen Robles:

If you say Brian Chesky, I'm ending this call right now.

Jason Aten:

I'm not gonna say Brian Chesky. Although Brian Chesky's He's he's very jobs than John Turnis because he's a designer.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

That's not who I was gonna say.

Stephen Robles:

That's the Airbnb CEO.

Jason Aten:

One of them, I'm not going to say because he's controversial. Right? He has plenty of companies to run, and I'm not advocating he should ever be CEO of Apple. But he he is the type of person who's like, what if we just made it electric? What if we just made what if we just took away the steering wheel and the and the all the everything.

Stephen Robles:

Sure.

Jason Aten:

Okay. But it does fit that. Let's just be honest. That is the mindset you're talking about. The other one is Panos Panay.

Jason Aten:

You know? He used be at Microsoft. He's now at at Amazon. Yeah. He's never gonna be the CEO of Apple.

Jason Aten:

Sure. But that is the person that you're looking for. Not Panos, but the person who is doing that sort

Stephen Robles:

of thing. And I will I I'll give you that because his interview with Nilai Patel and Decoder, when they were talking about Alexa Plus, which maybe may or may not be out, may or may not be useful, but the way he talked about it and his vision for how people would use it, I would give you that. It does feel like he's thinking how the normal person will use this technology in a useful way. So, yeah, I agree.

Jason Aten:

Okay. Sorry.

Stephen Robles:

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Jason Aten:

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Stephen Robles:

Little rhyme there for you. Thank you, Bzigo, for sponsoring this episode. I want this. I wanna see every one of those little anyway, I talk about your your article here, why the Tim Cook doctrine is preventing Apple from winning at AI. What is the Tim Cook doctrine?

Jason Aten:

Steven.

Stephen Robles:

I mean, I know. I want you to

Jason Aten:

tell I listen. Okay. The the Tim Cook it was, like, 02/2009. So this was before Tim Cook was CEO, and he was on a, you know, an earnings call or whatever. And he basically said, we believe that we should own or control all of our all of the primary technology in our devices.

Jason Aten:

Hence

Stephen Robles:

Hence our name. Right?

Jason Aten:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And it's amazing to me the number of people who misquote that as the core technology. John Gruber on our show, I had to, like, actually we had corrected it.

Jason Aten:

I only did it. I only corrected it because it's literally the name of our show. But I believe that that has been a hindrance in Apple's pursuit of AI because it like, I was at w d b WWDC when they rolled out Apple Intelligence and said in briefings where they talked to us about the on device stuff and the private cloud compute and how they're gonna send some things to ChatGPT, but do you remember when that rolled out where it, like, warned you every time it's gonna send to ChatGPT. Right? And so I think that that mentality worked really well when it came to, like, Apple Silicon, which is, like, a freaking Marvel.

Jason Aten:

Like, Apple Silicon like, do you I it's actually bad. Listeners, I'm just gonna confess something right here. The number of times I've written an article about how Apple just released a device with, like, an m one or then the m two and that they're literally just showing off

Stephen Robles:

Yeah.

Jason Aten:

I I the last time I wrote it, I'm like, oh, crap. I've actually talked about this, like, five times, but it's true.

Stephen Robles:

Copy paste.

Jason Aten:

These devices are insane. Yeah. And it's because Apple controls from beginning to end. And that mentality goes way back for Apple because of the number of times that they found themselves at the mercy of people who had control over them because they needed them, whether that was, like, Adobe or Microsoft. Those are the two most obvious examples.

Jason Aten:

Right? Microsoft could have literally just killed Apple. They could have. They could have been like, no. We're not making our software available.

Jason Aten:

No. We're just not gonna do it. Same thing with Adobe. Adobe if Adobe's like, we're not doing the they would've lost the main market share of creative type people at the time. That would've just been devastating.

Jason Aten:

The reason Microsoft actually couldn't do that is because they would've just it would've been anticompetitive, and they would've gotten into huge trouble for doing that. Right? So they actually did need a viable competitor to in order to not be, a monopoly. I mean, they turned out they were anyway, but they didn't kill they didn't kill Apple, thankfully. We're real happy about that.

Jason Aten:

So they've had this mentality of that, and it has served them very, very well. But in this case, I think Apple should stop. First of all, they spent whatever amount of time on this, and it's just still just as bad. Right? The opening line of my article is like, right, Apple has a problem, and it's not just that Siri is still just as dumb.

Jason Aten:

Right? But it is. It is still just as dumb as it's ever been. And there's no one who has ever thought I mean, let's be honest. Siri is good at one thing well, two things.

Jason Aten:

It is very good at setting a timer on your watch

Stephen Robles:

Yep.

Jason Aten:

If you only want one. Right. And it is and it the killer app is just setting reminders.

Stephen Robles:

Reminders. That's it.

Jason Aten:

Everyone I talk to is like, oh, Siri, that's that reminders app. Like, people just think that that's what you but there is literally, like, no better tech stack workflow between just, like, raising your watch and be like, remind me in twenty minutes to do a thing. Yeah. Like, I on like, thank you. Solve a problem.

Stephen Robles:

Did you know you could set a timer without saying set a timer?

Jason Aten:

Yeah. I learned that from you actually.

Stephen Robles:

Oh, thank you.

Jason Aten:

You can just pick up your watch and be like, five minutes. Yeah. And it'll just

Stephen Robles:

do it.

Jason Aten:

Zero friction. My I do that now. My family's like What are you saying? Who are you talking to? Prob nothing.

Jason Aten:

Dad is in the kitchen just saying five minutes. So I don't know if it's a bad sign. Yeah. It's very ominous. But so, yeah.

Jason Aten:

Like, I think though that Apple should stop trying to figure out how to build AI and just focus on building the best platform where people use AI. And to be clear, I don't think I was I was definitely not the first person to have this thought, but it came to me more concretely as I was, like, thinking this through. I think I first heard Ben Thompson talking about this on, it was either on I don't know if it was on Dithering or if it was in one of his Strathecary articles or the, Sharp Tech podcast he does with Andrew Sharp. But this idea that Apple's thing that it's best at the iPhone is its thing. It is the iPhone company.

Jason Aten:

Everything else that we love the Mac. I love my iPad, but the iPhone is Apple's biggest business. It's the most important consumer tech product. And literally the only thing that could potentially surpass it is AI. And Apple should make sure that the iPhone is the absolute best place to use AI products.

Jason Aten:

It just turns out that it is not very good at building AI products. It's just not. It is not good at it. And if it and if it wants to make Siri an incredible voice powered AI assistant, I think that that's a worthwhile cause. I think it should just figure out a way to incorporate.

Jason Aten:

I mean, the obvious candidate is Llama because it's open source, but it's never gonna use Llama because it's from Meta.

Stephen Robles:

Well, I I think Apple could have made a bunch of great features into the iPhone now with their LLMs, but maybe they're being so averse to unpolished products that they ever wanna do it. But since I have the I put the Mac OS Tahoe beta on my MacBook Air, I'm running it on, iPhone, Not my personal, not the main one. But, like, the Apple models action and shortcuts, it's actually pretty good. And I'm gonna build so many stinking shortcuts out of that model that are useful to people that they could have just built it into the apps now. Like, if I use the recipe example, they could have used their on device model to just say, pull the pertinent information out of this recipe on this page in Safari.

Stephen Robles:

That could have been just a feature in Safari. They could have said it was AI, that it's using their models. That would have been a win. They could have said, here's the voice memos app. But if you turn this feature on or maybe we have a different app that's like AI voice memos, It could have had a full transcription of your voice memo and given you a summary and bullet points.

Stephen Robles:

Like, there's entire companies like Plaud AI and the bee whatever that Joanna Stern tested recording her voice for an entire day. Like, there's entire product lines right now because Apple didn't build that feature into the iPhone. And they probably could have done it last year. They probably could have said iOS 18, the voice memos app. Now you can talk to it for thirty minutes.

Stephen Robles:

You get a full transcript of that voice memo, and you get a summary with key takeaways. Like, that was features in Apple Intelligence last year. But because, again, they don't have someone thinking about the product, like, how is someone actually gonna use this? They've hidden it away in writing tools that probably 90% of iPhone users have no idea where that even is or how to access it or what to do with it. So if they could have built it into voice memos, they could have built it into Safari, they could have built just better to basically, the whole all the AI companies that are just out there now, like clips.

Stephen Robles:

They have an app called clips that's literally supposed to be making short clips of videos. They probably could have used their own models to say, hey. Give us a ten minute video on your iPhone, and we'll cut it up into vertical videos and put animated captions on it. Like, entire businesses built on that right now that Apple probably could have done a year ago. And that I think would have made them put them more in the conversation of talking about all these AI features and stuff.

Stephen Robles:

That's it. Yeah. Sorry, my soapbox. I didn't realize I had one.

Jason Aten:

Yeah, it's great.

Stephen Robles:

So

Jason Aten:

I just think like Apple should I I do think in this case, they're sort of biased towards owning and controlling it all Yeah. Is what's holding them back from delivering the best experience for customers. And here's the thing. Apple thinks that the best experience for its customers is the most private, most whatever version of it. Right.

Jason Aten:

I think we've seen most people just don't care about it when it comes to this sort of thing. Like, people just aren't now that doesn't mean Apple should just give up on that. If they could figure out a way to to bring the best of both worlds, but what they shouldn't be afraid of is, like, letting people have the choice. Like, if people just want to put their you know? For example, like, I have going through some of the health stuff, the thing that ChatTPT is stinking amazing at is I could take a screenshot of a bunch of test results and be like, tell me what this means.

Jason Aten:

I had to go to the doctor and have some tests run recently, and and my our health care system has an app you can log into, and I could actually see the results before the doctor came back into the room to talk to me about the results. Right? And I screenshotted them. I dumped them into CHITPT, and I was like, me what this means. He's like, well, this is elevated, so that's probably this, and this is fine, and this is whatever, and it's probably this cause and whatever.

Jason Aten:

Like, it was it was amazing. And then the doctor walked in and was like, oh, this is elevated, so it's probably this. And this is, like I was like, did you just use CHI GPT? Come on, dude. What am I paying you for?

Jason Aten:

But the point was like apple would be like, dude, you're sending your personal health information to stinking Chad GPT. I'm like, yep, I'm cool. Like, it's fine. Like, are you gonna do with my health information?

Stephen Robles:

But listen, this is, this is the economy of YouTube. This is products. When people get value from something, they'll make whatever trade offs is necessary to attain that value. Like, when it comes to products, will they pay a certain amount of money for whatever value this product gives? And will someone trade their privacy and information if a product gives them extreme value?

Stephen Robles:

For you, Chad GPT, and I think for a lot of people, it's a no brainer. I get so much value from this that I I don't care or I am making the conscious decision to just give them my information, like, if you provide value. And that's where I think Apple has not provided value for Apple intelligence. Now visual intelligence with iOS 26, yeah, you could take a screenshot. And if there's a date and time in the screenshot, you can add it to your calendar.

Stephen Robles:

Cool. Like, I've had a shortcut that's done that for two years. But, yeah, like, that's that can be a valuable feature. But there's just so many other places. Like, Apple just needs to look at all the AI companies that have popped up in the last two years, and they can probably deliver all those features built in with their models or private cloud compute, and that would immediately put them like, help them catch up to what's going on out there.

Stephen Robles:

So anyway

Jason Aten:

Yeah. That's what

Stephen Robles:

I think. Alright. Now we gotta do a real lightning round. But that was great.

Jason Aten:

Okay.

Stephen Robles:

That was great. Speaking of AI, Meta is going all in. Meta hires Jason Wei and Young Wan Chung from OpenAI. They are poaching more AI researchers for their super intelligence group. And so if there's one company that's gonna be doing AI stuff, whether it's valuable or not, it's Meta.

Stephen Robles:

They're doing it, whatever that is. Yeah. That Apple, I just wanna mention 81 Emmy Award nominations. Severance nominated for 27 Emmys. That's why I'm wearing my scary number shirt from basic apple guy in Severance.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. So lots of Emmys there. Apple's going back to not having a oh, no. There's a picture in that newsroom.

Jason Aten:

Did you notice that, like, all of the guest almost all of the guest appearance nominees for, like, the best comedic guest appearance were all the studio?

Stephen Robles:

All the studio.

Jason Aten:

I mean, there's, like, maybe two that weren't, but, like

Stephen Robles:

Martin Scorsese. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody.

Jason Aten:

And It's like, well, I almost won an Emmy, but I had to go up against Martin Scorsese.

Stephen Robles:

For a guest appearance.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. For a guest appearance.

Stephen Robles:

But, honestly, well deserved because all those all those episodes are great. Public betas, I know that it rumors were that it's gonna might come out this week, but probably not. Probably next week. So if you're looking for the public betas, coming next week, maybe July. I have a video with a 100 features of iOS 26.

Stephen Robles:

Whenever that public beta drops, just be on the lookout because I'm gonna

Jason Aten:

be So you were just trying to outdo Joanna Stern who was trying to do like 26 features of iOS 26?

Stephen Robles:

She's actually on book leave. I saw she posted that, you know, she's trying to write a book and so she's, you know, I signed up for a newsletter because she's not gonna be around.

Jason Aten:

I was wondering though because her book is about how she let AI make all her decisions. So did the AI just post that and it's like, she's nothing to worry about. Joanna Stern is fine. She's on book leave right now. You're not gonna hear from her from a while, but don't anybody worry.

Jason Aten:

The AI has it under control.

Stephen Robles:

Joanna bot. Is it Joanna bot? Google announced the Pixel ten and Pixel watch four event is August 20. We'll see the next Pixel things then, maybe a new fold. So there you go, if if you're interested in that.

Stephen Robles:

I'm I mean, I'm interested in these folds now, so I'm curious if Pixel's gonna do a fold. The problem is I've been all Apple on my YouTube channel, and so none of these companies will talk to me about Android phones. So I gotta

Jason Aten:

Also, you know that, like, all of those foldable devices, they run Android, so you're not gonna wanna use them. And I'm not saying Android is bad, like, to the world. Please don't you know, whatever. But Yeah. Steven, you're not gonna use them.

Jason Aten:

So let's just be honest.

Stephen Robles:

Can I so real quick? Someone posted on threads because they had the Z Fold seven, and they were like they were holding the phone folded open. They were like, can your iPhone do this? And it had YouTube on one side and something on the right side. And it's like, okay.

Stephen Robles:

I mean, dumb question. No, it can't do that because it only has one screen. And so I was gonna do a smart reply, and I was gonna be like, oh, yeah. Well, can your phone do this? And I was gonna run a shortcut that I have that run the movie database things.

Stephen Robles:

And so I could search for a movie, it finds where to stream it, and then creates a note. And I literally posted it. And then two seconds later, deleted it because I was like, well, I don't know that if you just ask Gemini, it might give you that same information. Like, if you ask it, where can I stream Dune part two? It might just tell you and give you the link.

Stephen Robles:

So maybe like, I just don't know. And so I feel like for my own, snarky responses, I need to try one of these phones and see how much can it actually do. So I'm not just like

Jason Aten:

You're doing it for the threads.

Stephen Robles:

You're doing it for the threads. Oh, this is a sad sad news, but actually, I heard this was coming. Belkin is discontinuing its smart home device line. So the Belkin Wemo devices, they had made smart switches. They had made smart plugs.

Stephen Robles:

They had one of the few HomeKit secure video doorbell cameras. They're all done. And January 2026, these devices will stop working unless you set them up with HomeKit, which is one of the wonderful things about HomeKit is that even when a company totally goes under and no longer exists, if the device has HomeKit support, you can still use it for as long as you want. But, yeah, no more WeMo in the smart home world.

Jason Aten:

I think that there should be a law, and I never say that. But I think there should be a law Uh-huh. That if you roll out a smart device, it's fine that devices have, like, a lifespan. Well, no.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. You have to figure out a way to continue to support the device for some reasonable amount of time because this is about to happen to our Nest thermostat. Oh. This first and second gen Nest thermostats are no longer going to work with the Nest app or the Google Home app after, like, October. There's no difference.

Jason Aten:

Like, it works fine. A thermostat in your home should not be dependent on whether or not. Of course, this is Google at this point, so I should have known. But it wasn't Google when I bought it. Remember Al was Nest?

Stephen Robles:

The chat app?

Jason Aten:

No. I don't. But point taken.

Stephen Robles:

Killed by google.com?

Jason Aten:

I just but I feel like you shouldn't be in the why? What will we just let us keep a old version. I understand they can't continue to support, like, maybe an old version of an app forever. Right? But, like, there should be no so the thermostat will continue to work apparently.

Stephen Robles:

Okay.

Jason Aten:

But it will not have any like, the killer feature is I can be like, we're headed home from Florida, and we're now at the border. Let me, like, turn on the air conditioning so that the house isn't 87 degrees when we get home. You won't be able to access any of it from the app. None of it from the app. You won't be able to control it won't have access to Wi Fi, so you won't even get alerts saying, like, change your filter and stuff like that.

Jason Aten:

Why? Like, that is insane to me that companies do that. It's like, but so at least with the ones you were just talking about, if you connect them to HomeKit, you can keep using them. Right. Right.

Jason Aten:

Right. That's great. But don't these companies know that they are just self diff I gotta write this down. They're just defeating themselves. The number of things I write down, I'm like, I should write about that.

Jason Aten:

And then I don't. It's it's a very long list.

Stephen Robles:

So you got ideas

Jason Aten:

to But I do like the but the worst thing is when I'm like, what what did we talk about? And then, I have to listen to the whole podcast, but I don't remember that that's what I wanna do. Anyway

Stephen Robles:

You should just cite for the in the transcript. I should write an article about this

Jason Aten:

because you said But I don't always say it. I sometimes just write it inside. I don't know this. But, anyway, I just think, like, they they are defeating their own brand and marketing by killing off this stuff because it's like, we want you to buy this thing, but in seven years, you won't be able to use it anymore. Like, no one wants to because doorbells and thermostats are not a thing like an iPhone.

Jason Aten:

IPhone, I'm like, fine. If it dies in a year, I'm gonna have a new one anyway. Don't care. Right. Right.

Jason Aten:

Right? AirPods, I assume that I'm gonna lose one of them in the toilet one of these days, and I'll have to buy a new pair at some point. But a thermostat, I never wanna buy another thermostat.

Stephen Robles:

Right. Well, and that's like, I have the Ecobee that I bought when we moved into this house three years ago, and there's been newer ones that come out. But because it's HomeKit, like, don't need to worry about what Ecobee Ecobee could go out of business tomorrow and I'm good. And I think Matter is that answer for, like, the whole smart home ecosystem. So if you get a Matter device now, it should work with whatever system you have.

Stephen Robles:

But yeah. Speaking of smart home, all the rumors about a smart home hub from Apple, Apparently, it's been delayed again, and we might not see it until next year, 2026. This is from Mark Gurman, mostly because of the voice assistant on the thing probably still sucks. So, anyway, yeah, I'm I'm just so mad because I want this thing so bad and it's

Jason Aten:

a Well, I'm interested, but I'm not optimistic that this is what you really want.

Stephen Robles:

Probably not, but I like the idea of it. So But

Jason Aten:

if they make this thing over here, this pixel tablet with a base

Stephen Robles:

that I

Jason Aten:

have, that that's that'd be perfect. That would be perfect. Because it has the thing that the Apple doesn't seem to wanna do, but that's when you put it on there, it acts like any of their Google pub things. Yeah. I that was the worst description.

Stephen Robles:

No. No. No. I get I get it. It's the the tablet that connects

Jason Aten:

to you. Take it off, it's a tablet, and if you put it on, it's the device, but Apple's not gonna do

Stephen Robles:

that. No.

Jason Aten:

They're not gonna do that. They're not gonna give you an iPad with a base sticker, which they should.

Stephen Robles:

Maybe the iPhone 17 colors leaked. Maybe the iPhone 17 Pro is gonna have an orange color as, like, the highlight color and then a light blue, like the sky blue m four MacBook Air. I'm probably not gonna buy an orange phone. I'll be real, but that's just me.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. I'm not gonna buy that, but that's

Stephen Robles:

I'll get the blue. I'll get the blue one.

Jason Aten:

What would you do? But is that the that is it is that those are the Pro colors?

Stephen Robles:

Supposedly, the Pro will have the the regular space black, the silver, a light blue, and an orange.

Jason Aten:

That's there's no chance that those are the

Stephen Robles:

What color would you get if those were the four?

Jason Aten:

I would get I might go to white.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. Like I do like the white. I've had it for a couple of years. It's nice.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. I like white and black. I probably would get the white.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. Or, I mean, I'll see I'll see how the light blue. I had that Sierra blue. I think it was the iPhone 13 Pro. That was a nice blue, but it was an actual it was more blue than, like, the wispy, you know, ink cartridges low blue.

Stephen Robles:

But, anyway

Jason Aten:

Yeah.

Stephen Robles:

I I wanted to mention this because my son was excited with the Zelda live action movie. They announced the actors who will be playing Zelda and Link. They are oh, I need to reload without content blockers because it won't load the picture. But this was posted the Nintendo account on X posted this. Yeah.

Stephen Robles:

Those are the actors for Link and Zelda in the live action movie coming up. I'm excited. Oh, I'll see that.

Jason Aten:

Did I have you ever heard of either of them?

Stephen Robles:

No. Which I think is great. You know? Yeah. That's cool.

Stephen Robles:

But yeah. No. That's that's them. Last thing I wanna mention, Google announced a bunch of Notebook LMs, and they have, like, already made Notebook LMs if you wanna do research or something. And so I tried the Shakespeare one.

Stephen Robles:

So this Notebook LM is completely free to use. You just log in with your Google account. And basically, a study guides for all of Shakespeare's works, plus it has a chatbot where you can ask it questions. It was actually really cool and actually pretty useful. And so I've not used Nobel KLM for anything.

Stephen Robles:

I just knew it as like the podcast generating machine from Google. But this, I don't know. It it's pretty cool, and it's actually pretty useful. And my oldest son is actually gonna be studying a lot of Shakespeare this year. Hopefully, actually reads the plays rather than just use this tool, but, it's there.

Stephen Robles:

It's pretty cool.

Jason Aten:

That is cool.

Stephen Robles:

We should do a notebook LM for this podcast so people can just search, and you can see, well, what articles you need to write.

Jason Aten:

I would love that.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. That'd be great.

Jason Aten:

Could you create me a shortcut that just keeps posted pinging it and and sends me a notification when I mention that?

Stephen Robles:

That's a that's pretty good idea.

Jason Aten:

Alright. See, these are the these are the things that Apple should be solving.

Stephen Robles:

That's it. Alright. Quick, personal tech, food tracking apps. I asked on threads and all the social medias what everybody uses for food trackers. And I said, that's not my fitness pal.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. I wanna under that's the part did you ever respond to my question or did you just start to save I did. Apparently, I checked threads. I I leave I leave questions out there on threads and then never go back and see if someone

Stephen Robles:

I asked because I've used MyFitnessPal in the past and something about the UI and how it worked. I'm sure you get used to it and you learn whatever, but I was just not a I don't know. I just didn't jive, and I didn't end up actually tracking things, and I couldn't get in and out there easily in like, in and out of the app easily. So what I did was I tried FoodNom because that's what a lot of people suggested, try the FoodNom app. And I love it.

Stephen Robles:

I absolutely love this app. It's beautifully designed. It's a single developer. It has a little AI tool, so you can actually go in there and ask or type, like, just random words, and it'll use foodnom.ai to actually ascertain what you're trying to tell it. You can even send it a picture, and foodnom.ai will will figure it out.

Stephen Robles:

And the best part, it has so many shortcuts actions. It has all the shortcuts actions. And so I've I've already created some there. And you can, like, quickly track your previous meals. You can quickly do, like, a food nom search with AI, and it's wonderful.

Stephen Robles:

So all the and it's like so many more shortcuts actions than what I'm just showing there, but I've been using FoodNoms. But you use MyFitnessPal, full stop?

Jason Aten:

Yeah. So your reason for not wanting to use it was just you didn't like the UI?

Stephen Robles:

I had tried to use it before, like full on. I downloaded it, installed it, was trying to track it. And something about I don't know if it was and again, haven't tried it in the last year probably. But something about the UI just was not and I feel like the the subscription is kinda pricey, isn't it?

Jason Aten:

I mean, was it like $80 a year or something maybe?

Stephen Robles:

$80 a year, $20 a month. Yeah. So

Jason Aten:

Wait. Well, okay. I'm sorry. The one I'm paying for is a $100 a year or $8 a month.

Stephen Robles:

Oh, okay. Yeah. I don't, I don't know. It's just, well,

Jason Aten:

don't care. I don't know why I'm actually paying for it because I'm not sure other if there's anything I need. Like, I don't know for sure if there's anything I need in this here because what I basically do with it is I track all the food and I track my weight on it. And the reason I like it is it can do what you just described where you can just take a picture of your plate Yeah. And it will tell you what all the things are.

Jason Aten:

And then you can just add it to that that way. Or what I do a lot is you can scan the barcode on a package and it'll it'll put that in there. I I don't know. Like, I'm just in it and it just has been fantastic. I don't know that it's the best, but I'm not gonna No.

Jason Aten:

No. Have lot of history and something you're not about to switch. There's no way. But I just didn't know why you didn't like it. So that was because you're like I'm like, did he have a bad experience with it?

Stephen Robles:

Like, did he serve

Jason Aten:

him some bad pudding or

Stephen Robles:

something like too It much friction for me and I'd never stuck with it. And maybe it's because I didn't have enough systems and enough, like, repeatable meals and foods in there. Follow-up food NOMS is $6 a month or $40 a year. So that's the cost for that. So, I mean, it is cheaper.

Stephen Robles:

That's not exactly why I did it, but I did really like just just the UI and the design and quickly seeing this stuff at the top. I don't know. And it has the barcode scanner like you're saying, so I've been scanning foods. You can also just, like, scan a nutrition label. So if it can't find the barcode, you just point it at the nutrition label, and it'll fill out all the information, visually.

Stephen Robles:

And I've done that a couple times. So a bunch of people said FoodNOM. There were also people saying lose it, and there were some other ones. But, I'm gonna stick with FoodNOM for a while because, I'm liking it. So we'll see.

Jason Aten:

The only thing I well, the one thing I did like about and maybe I I'm they probably all do this, so it's fine. But I don't care about calories. It doesn't matter to me at this point. I and it'll track my steps too. Great.

Jason Aten:

I have, like, now five apps that are all tracking all of these things. Right? Because the Withings apps will track some of this stuff Right. That I have to do because I have, like, that's the blood pressure cuff and thermometer and scale that we have. So, like, that go so when I go into Apple Health, you you know when you go to, like, a category of a thing.

Jason Aten:

Yeah. So let's say your weight. You track your weight every day and you go into that and then you can click see all data.

Stephen Robles:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

Sometimes I have, like, four entries because it's, like, it pulled it from the Withings app. It also pulled it from my manual entry, but those are exactly the same because I just went from the

Stephen Robles:

scale and typed it in. Yeah.

Jason Aten:

And it's so, like, all of this stuff is syncing, which is wonderful. I love that it'll do all that. But I can tell it, like, I don't want I can't my limit for this thing is lower, so it'll tell me, like, what percentage I because otherwise, it just does it based on a standard adult diet or whatever. So you can, like, tell it, like, I do actually, I don't wanna have this. Right?

Jason Aten:

So it was very customizable, I guess, is what I'm trying to say, which I really appreciated. So

Stephen Robles:

Well, that's why FoodNoms, when you first install it, you can give it access to your Apple Health data, or you can just put in your, like, height, weight, and all of that, and you tell it what your goal is. And I do wanna start tracking calories, and so it'll automatically give you a daily calorie goal depending on what you're trying to accomplish, like what you're trying to do. So gonna have this. Anyway, we'll we'll follow-up maybe in a couple months, and I'll see how it's been going. But but I really like FoodNoms.

Stephen Robles:

It's it's a cool app. Another bunch of those suggestions. But if you have a favorite food tracking app and you've not less left us a five star rating and review in Apple Podcast, you can do that this week. Do it right now. Leave us a five star rating and review.

Stephen Robles:

We appreciate it. Let us know what is your food tracking app, or do you use spaces and do you know what that is? You can you put that in the five star review as well. We love if you watch the show on youtube.com/@primarytechshow. You could just video versions there.

Stephen Robles:

And if you support the show, here's the crazy part. You support us with $5 a month or $50 a year. You get an ad free version of the show. You get a bonus episode every week. You get our daily Monday through Friday news show, the top headlines in just a few minutes.

Stephen Robles:

That's all part of the same thing. You get an unedited version of the recording if you want just, like, the full on full recording, listen to the the raw edit. And, I think you get other benefits. I can't even remember now, but, there's so many.

Jason Aten:

You get to listen to us talk about food tracking. Exactly. That's not a benefit. Never mind. We don't make you pay for that.

Stephen Robles:

No. No. No. But all of that. So if you can, we'd love if you support the show.

Stephen Robles:

Join .primarytech.fm, or you can support us directly in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. Thanks for We'll catch you next time.

Creators and Guests

Jason Aten
Host
Jason Aten
Contributing Editor/Tech Columnist @Inc | Get my newsletter: https://t.co/BZ5YbeSGcS | Email me: me@jasonaten.net
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Stephen Robles
Host
Stephen Robles
Making technology more useful for everyone 📺 video and podcast creator 🎼 musical theater kid at heart
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