Perplexity AI is BS’ing Everyone, Which Mac is Best For Me? visionOS 2.0 is Worth the Beta
Download MP3The color of this pen is royal blue. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. This week, we have a big story about Perplexity, the AI startup, doing some pretty egregious things in the background. We have some updates to VisionOS 2 point o. Yes.
Stephen Robles:I installed the beta. I wanna talk about that. Some new things revealed about iOS 18 and Apple Intelligence, and we have our poll results for trackpad, the Magic Mouse, and more. This episode is brought to you by you, the members that support us directly. Thank you for that.
Stephen Robles:I'm one of your hosts, Steven Robles. Joining me as always, my friend Jason Aitin. How's it going, Jason?
Jason Aten:Good. I'm feeling super vindicated that I was able to push you over the edge into installing VisionOS 2 under the Vision Pro that you never use.
Stephen Robles:When you said I was only gonna use it 2 times between now September anyways, I mean, that hurt. That hurt. But it was
Jason Aten:also nerve stuff. True.
Stephen Robles:It was true. So
Jason Aten:Well, here's the thing. It's one thing to be going back and forth about whether you should put, like, the beta for on your iPhone or on the Mac that you use every day. But I'm like, Steven, there's this is the lowest stakes possible. It'd be like if they put out a beta for rabbit r one. Like, yeah, just put it on there.
Jason Aten:Who cares?
Stephen Robles:I will say I will say, there's a slight humane AI PIN news, this week, which we're gonna talk about. But I did I did, bring it here in the office, so I'm charging my humane AI PIN because it was supposedly a big update. The 1 dot 1 dot 4 update, which I can't get it to update after 3 days. But anyway
Jason Aten:And do you have a fire extinguisher in your office just in case?
Stephen Robles:Can I just say we're not this show is not about the humane AI pin? I have charged this for the past 3 days. I put it on right off the charger. Every time it says AI pin has to cool down. And so I've not even been able to, like, use it.
Stephen Robles:Put up the charger. Anyway, that's why these these devices are
Jason Aten:I do wanna say for Steven's sake, Steven has a very well, like, planned out roadmap. And then I log into Riverside and I just stand here and I, like, poke at it and, like, nope. We're not just derail this thing for holes,
Stephen Robles:you know, random stuff. No. But it's good. It's good. We and a good thing.
Stephen Robles:Listen, we have a ton of 5 star shout outs to do because we are once again a 5 star podcast in Apple Podcasts. I don't know how we did it. No. It's because our amazing community and listeners are leaving us 5 star views. So here, I'm gonna find my fireworks reaction.
Stephen Robles:Here we go. Yay. I don't can you do your reaction? How do you
Jason Aten:do that? Yeah. I have to turn them back on. Oh, shoot.
Stephen Robles:What symbol do you do? I don't know what hand gesture is the fireworks. I think
Jason Aten:it's thumbs, isn't it?
Stephen Robles:Is it 2 thumbs up or is it the the rock? Or that I think it's a bubble.
Jason Aten:Down. That's for sure.
Stephen Robles:Let me shoot some lasers.
Jason Aten:Hold on. Hold on. There we go.
Stephen Robles:I got the right one. You got balloons. I
Jason Aten:got lasers. We're so excited. And if you're listening to this in your car, you have no idea what's happening right now.
Stephen Robles:Yes. Youtube.com/atparmoretechshow. We're We're trying to do reactions because we're 5 stars. So if you didn't hear last week's episode, we got, like, a 1 3 star review, and it knocked us down a whole point one on the Apple Podcast rating, and then everybody showed up. We've now crossed the 205 star review mark, so we're a 5 star podcast again.
Stephen Robles:It's amazing. Thank you all. So those who left off 5 star reviews, Rolling Thunder is the guy's name. He said he's a railroader. I don't know if that means he's a conductor or something, but that sounds pretty cool.
Stephen Robles:Red pixel09 and many others by the way, we asked on last week's episode, what should we say for the voice assistant so we don't set up everyone's HomePods? A lot of people said, hey, Iris, which is, you know, the word backwards. I don't know.
Jason Aten:Yeah. I I have a I have a philosophical objection to that. We can maybe talk about that later, but I'm just ornery about it.
Stephen Robles:Because Iris is a word. You know? It's a it's a different thing. I don't know how often we're gonna be talking about Iris in someone's Iris maybe one day if it's built into. I don't know.
Stephen Robles:Anyway, other 5 star review shout outs, the programmer, Cleveland Cleveland kid. He's a magic mouse user, also battery percentage on. I won't hold it against him. I I also requested a shortcut. We'll get to that, hopefully in a later episode.
Stephen Robles:Then John g h 36, battery percentage on. He's a he said shared with us, 14 years old listening to the show. Thank you for listening, and, we have all the demographics which is pretty cool. Realest photo, vivecuervo, which I feel like is a a tagline for a drink. Right?
Stephen Robles:I don't know.
Jason Aten:Cuervo isn't tequila. Yes.
Stephen Robles:Okay. Yeah. Well, he said Cuervo with a k, so I guess we we don't break copyright. But in Deltona, Florida, fellow Floridian, andres.prandramblin Scotsman, thank you all for those 5 star reviews. That is awesome.
Stephen Robles:And 2 other quick shout outs before we get to, perplexity. We had a very long time listener, James Prochnow. He sent us a DM, with a fun sketch. I can't say it on this show because it was a secret for the bonus episodes for our members. So you can support the show.
Stephen Robles:You can go to primary tech dot f m, click bonus episodes, support us that way or directly on Apple Podcasts, and we'll talk about that in the bonus episodes. And one other shout out, we actually in our community, social.primary tech dot f m, we have a lot of developers who listen to the show, people who make apps, and so I thought it'd be cool to start giving shout outs to those who are listening to the show, part of the community, and so this, app is called Dark Panel. It's from the maker Ryan Off. What's up, Ryan? He's, in the community, long time listener, and this app is actually for Apple TV.
Stephen Robles:It's a free app, so you can just download it. It's called a dark panel, and what's cool is you can load this app on your Apple TV, and, you know, I like the aerial screensavers on Apple TV. That's usually what I have going most of the time. But sometimes, if it's late at night and, you know, maybe you're gonna watch something with a significant other, but then you start talking, but the room is very dim, like sometimes those aerial screensavers can be very bright, and it just kind of like comes on and it's just real bright, and your Apple TV was in dark mode, so it can be a little jarring. So dark panel is just a very simple app where you open it, it will prevent the screensaver from running on your Apple TV, and then you can just choose something very discreet, like a clock, or he has some very subtle gradients that can just be on the Apple TV screen, and I thought it was pretty cool.
Stephen Robles:So it's free app. You could try it out. I like the you can put a little clock in the bottom right corner, very discreet, and so, yeah, I actually used it last night because it was kinda late and the app TV was on, but I didn't wanna go to the aerial mode, so yeah we'll put a link to that app in the show notes and let us know if you have an app in the app store, DM, you can DM me. I was trying to think how can people get a hold of us? I find, you know, these multiple social platforms, sometimes emails can get, you know, lost.
Stephen Robles:You can actually DM me or Jason. I don't know if Jason's gonna answer. That's up to him. I don't know if he checks the DMs, but you can DM us in our, community at social.primarytake.fm. It's free to join, and then you can also comment on all the polls and posts and stuff.
Stephen Robles:So, yeah, let us know what you think.
Jason Aten:I definitely think that you have to do it from within our community, like, because you have to be in our community. You don't have to be a member. You don't have to be a paying member to be in the community. No.
Stephen Robles:No. No.
Jason Aten:But you have to be in the community. I mean, you're welcome to just DM, you know, Steven on Twitter x whatever. But if you want him to mention your app, you have to do it from within the community. I was trying to figure out, like, why would anybody want their their Apple TV to be dark because, you know, you can just turn it off. But then I realized, like, what if you're playing music and you didn't want the artwork up on the screen and you were using it?
Jason Aten:I literally have never used my apple TV once to play music, but I do like, so I asked about this and people were like, yeah, well, I use my apple TV to stream stream Spotify or Apple Music all the time. And I and this would be great because then I don't have to have the screen on when I'm doing that. So there you go.
Stephen Robles:There you go. It's a good app. Ryan, thanks for sending that in. Alright. We have big news, perplexity.
Stephen Robles:I'm gonna share this, article. So if you're watching on YouTube, you're gonna see this article. There's an expletive. I'm not gonna say it because I don't want us to get the explicit tag on Apple Podcasts.
Jason Aten:Because you can't bid Angel on our podcast. So
Stephen Robles:You can't bid Angel this podcast. But I'm going to, share this article. This is a huge report from Wired talking about perplexity, and the the headline it's one of the best headlines of the year, maybe maybe of the past few years, but perplexity is a BS machine. And this article goes through a lot of research done by a wired analyst and also a Rob Knight. I believe he is at Macstories or someone at Macstories was also did, found out information about this, but Perplexity, which is an AI startup and was very popular.
Stephen Robles:I saw so many people talking about this on social media, saying it was better than ChatchePT, especially when trying to summarize articles, which will become important in a moment. Apparently, perplexity was ignoring the robot dot txt file for websites, which we talked about actually on last week's episode. This is a little apropos, but that robot txt file basically is when websites can tell these chatbots like chat gpt or perplexity, do not scour our website, do not index our website, we don't want that. We don't want you doing that. Apparently, Perplexity was often ignoring that, basically scraping these websites through, like, a secret IP address, non non it was public, meaning that's how that's how it was discovered by the wired analyst and, Mac stories.
Stephen Robles:That perplexity was ignoring that robot dot txt file, so that's bad, and, like, that's an issue. We're also gonna tie that into Apple Intelligence in a moment, but also that it was just making stuff up, where Perplexity's feature, it said that it would basically you know, we'll summarize an article for you. We're gonna go look at that website and tell you about it. So Perplexity basically offering to, you know, save you a couple steps, like, rather than having to copy and paste the text and maybe put it into chat g p t or whatever, like, Perplexity would kind of expedite this summarization process, and it was found that it would just would make stuff up, not even, like, change little details of a thing, but just make whole cloth stories up, and Wired tested this by creating a test website. It basically put one line on it, like, one sentence saying, this website is a wired reporter or something, pointed perplexity at that website and said give me a summary of this page, and perplexity made up an entire story and claiming it to be the summary of that page.
Stephen Robles:So not only was perplexity ignoring robots dot txt file, indexing websites even though they asked not to be, but also just made stuff up. And one of my favorite parts of this article, you could share your favorite line of it, but I I like that it actually calls to Harry Frankfurt's book. The book title is On BS, but it's the full word, obviously. To be honest, it's one of my favorite books, because it's a short book, but in it he talks about the idea of the difference between a liar and someone who is unconcerned with truth, and I love this distinction that the book makes because a liar has to know what is true and misrepresent it, or know what is true and say the opposite, but rather someone who is unconcerned with truth, which telltale signs are like a narcissist, they actually just don't even pay attention. Like, the reality that they make up in their head is just unconcerned with the facts.
Stephen Robles:And so, basically, this, quote here from the Wired article, because these programs, namely like perplexity, cannot themselves be concerned with truth, and because they are designed to produce text that looks like truth, apt with any actual concern for truth, it seems appropriate to call their outputs b s, which is what perplexity was doing. So this is, not a good look on perplexity. Yeah. We have not addressed it.
Jason Aten:I think there's a couple things here. Lots of them. But I
Stephen Robles:think lots of couple of things.
Jason Aten:There's a lot of things. I mean, yeah, the quote that I thought was super summarized, the whole thing was simply that like perplexed. It says perplexity appears that it's both doing what it says it isn't and not doing what it says it is. And it's sort of like, then what are you doing? But perplexity is a little bit different because essentially they position themselves as they call it an answer engine, but it's a search engine that is using other people's models.
Jason Aten:And you can actually choose which models you want it to use. If you pay for perplexity, you have like access to Claude and chat gbt and some other things like that. So it's not actually building its own model type things. It's using other AI and it's con positioning itself as like AI powered search engine. So what it's doing is using those models to understand your query and then reframe those prompts to go out onto the internet and find information and bring it back to you.
Jason Aten:And we talked about this, the standard way of saying to a search engine or whatever, don't don't index my stuff is the robots robots dot TXT file. And the thing about that is it's always been just like on the honor system, right? There's nothing about that file that prevents you from actually not crawling it. It's just you're depending on the goodwill of like a company like Google probably doesn't want to get the reputation that it is just blatantly ignoring that because it has enough problems with goodwill when it comes to how it's using content that's on the Internet. So generally speaking, as far as I know, Google tends to honor that sort of thing.
Jason Aten:And so what may happen is a website might be like, you can you can index our articles, but you can't index these other pages that are technically publicly accessible, but we don't want them indexed in a search engine. Right? So we could we could say we don't want our our our article or our forum conversations in our, you know, social dot primary tech dot FM. We don't want that index because we don't want people to be able to search and find those. We only want that available to members.
Jason Aten:Like, you can make those kind of decisions. Right. What perplexity was doing is basically just according to this report, ignoring that. Now, perplexity also had published a series of IP addresses that it uses to scrape or to index scrape, whatever. Either way, scrape and index.
Jason Aten:Same thing. Well, pretty close. They're very close neighbors.
Stephen Robles:They're close.
Jason Aten:And so so a lot of publishers had actually blocked those IP addresses.
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:What wired did is wanted to know if it was actually blocking it. And so you might use a firewall to actually block these IP addresses. And then when wired put in what you just described, it's like, how can it possibly come back with anything if we've blocked it and we've told it not to do it? So it turned out it was using an unpublished IP address. And it and since then, perplexity is actually taking down the list of IP addresses that it was using because it's like, oh, if we're going to not follow this, it's going to be real obvious if we're saying one thing.
Jason Aten:And so that's really the the thing I feel like AI in general already has a trust problem. Right?
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:People don't trust these AI companies. And so when they say they're doing a thing, I mean, it's just like this is so closely related to the Sam Altman Scarlett Johansson thing, right? Please don't use my voice. Okay. Oh, shoot.
Jason Aten:We just use your voice. Wink. It's like Yeah.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Aten:This is like the and this is a pretty common criticism of the tech industry as a whole. Right? Like, there are lots of examples of of companies that are do have have done this historically throughout time until they get caught and then it's like, oh, shoot. We probably should come up with some rules to follow. So I personally think like this for perplexity is devastating because if you don't trust it, then you you're not going to use it.
Jason Aten:Right? And there's a lot riding on this for a company like this. The last thing I'll say is, Adam, you know, the fact that you could say summarize this Wired article, and it would just put in quotes that were not in the article. Make crap up, which is fundamentally a core feature of all of these large language model systems is that they just make stuff up. And if you're a publisher, it's really important to you that the quotes that you give are, are related to a source.
Jason Aten:Right? You don't, you can't do, I can't just make up quotes and put them in a story, and I wouldn't want someone summarizing my article to do the same thing. And so I think a lot of the AI industry suffers from the same problem. This just happens to be the most glaring example at the moment of a company that's essentially just, like, pretending like the rules don't apply to them.
Stephen Robles:So there are a couple of the things from the Wired article. One, apparently, there is a when you sign up for perplexity, you do have access to multiple large language models like you were saying. There is a SONAR large 32 ks, which is supposedly unique to perplexity but based on Meta's llama 3, so I don't know, like, if that's actually proprietary, but that might have been the large language model that Perplexity was basically training on these on these websites. But I the 2 things that are just wild, like, Perplexity just had, like, a round of funding recently and it supposedly made Perplexity worth 10 figures as a startup. Yep.
Stephen Robles:We talked about and we talked about AI a lot on these last few episodes but it's, like, it's the one area of the economy and maybe business that's kind of that is succeeding or being successful and profitable. And so this land grab and race to try and be, like, the most important in this world of AI tools or models, obviously, is causing some to have some pretty poor business choices because they're trying to get to that, trying to be the top. And and a couple other things, when it comes to, like, making up facts, there was a specific example the Wired article brought up was there was, like, a police officer in the in a case and supposedly was, like, the police officer was arrested. I forgot exactly what the detail was, but that actually didn't happen. Like, the police officer, like, did not, like, the perplexity said something Right.
Jason Aten:Commit a crime. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. Like, committed a crime. Like, totally yeah. Not that is not good. And then also it mentioned, they talked to a lawyer and apparently there is a legal precedent for, like, the robot dot txt file being ignored.
Stephen Robles:And it's possible that there could be some kind of legal, you know, I'm struggling with words today. I don't know. Legal ramifications for Sure. Perplexity ignoring it. But the law that it's based on, like many US laws of trying to apply to technology, is vague and not precise.
Stephen Robles:And so companies like Perplexity might just be able to go to court, have good enough lawyers, and talk their way out of it. But there is, I guess, some kind of legal precedent, if not even vague, that could be brought against perplexity and others who have scraped the open web like Apple, which we'll talk about in a second. But did you have anything else about Yeah.
Jason Aten:22 other quick things, only because you said something, and I know exactly what you meant, but it occurred to me that this is a thing that people get confused on very easily. And I look I think back to just, like, a week this past week, somebody had posted something on threads, and I responded to it and made him really mad because that's just, I guess, what I do on threads.
Stephen Robles:You made somebody mad on threads, Jason?
Jason Aten:But the person had yeah. I can't even go back and find it anywhere because they blocked me, which first time I've been blocked on threads that I know of,
Stephen Robles:but whatever. Oh, wow.
Jason Aten:Okay. And all I said was, this is a gross this is a common misunderstanding of what Apple is doing because the person had said, like, how how who would want this on their device because Apple is using your personal information to train their model, which is not the case. The model has already been trained. Right? Like, there's a very important difference between data that is used to train a model and then data that can be used as an input for a prompt or an answer.
Jason Aten:Right. That you get. So all of these models, for example, perplexity is not using these public publications to train its model. However, most of the models that it's using were trained on the data. So I'm not I'm not excusing perplexity.
Jason Aten:What perplexity is doing is the same thing that Google is doing, which is to index websites, web pages and use that information then when you ask it a prompt. So when you ask something when you ask an AI large language model chatbot a prompt, it is using that model to understand what you're saying, know where it should go to find the information. It goes out onto the Internet and perplexity's case to just like a search engine would find that information, and then it uses that model again to present it to you in a way that makes sense. Of course, in this case, it also uses it to just make crap up, whatever. But I just wanted to distinguish between those two things.
Jason Aten:There's actually two problems of what's happening here. Those models were all trained on the open Internet. We'll talk about that with Apple in a minute. The other thing I was just gonna say though is the more I think about this, the more it seems as though perplexity has essentially the same problem that, like, the rabbit are 1 had, which is like, we're gonna just try to make a promise about a thing, and then we're just gonna fake the whole back end of it. And it'll look like we're making the it'll look like we're doing the thing we're saying we're doing until you realize that really we're just running on an Android phone somewhere in the cloud or something like that.
Jason Aten:Really? So that was rabbit r one in that case.
Stephen Robles:That was rabbit r one. Yeah.
Jason Aten:But in perplexity's case, it's like making all of this all these premises, and it's not actually doing that. And in the background, it's actually doing something totally different that it actually said it wasn't doing. And so and the more we hear about these AI companies, it's exactly like you said. NVIDIA just became the most valuable company in the world passing both Microsoft and Apple, and it's all because of this race to for for to for the AI because it's it's h 100 GPUs are the standard. That's it.
Jason Aten:That's what everyone is using except for Apple and its private cloud compute to train models and to run all of this stuff. In every single company, they look at the amount of money. And the funny thing about a company like Perplexity, again, I don't know a ton about it except for the people behind it have experience at Meta and Google and all these places. Right. They're in the phase right now where making money is not important.
Jason Aten:What's important is getting people to give them money as an investment. Right?
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:Those two incentives are totally different because getting someone to give you money as an investment is entirely based on your promises, whether they are real or not.
Stephen Robles:That's true.
Jason Aten:Whereas making money as a company is dependent entirely on customers being satisfied with the product they're paying for. And so we're still in the phase of scooping up as much investor VC money as we possibly can, which is why all of these wild claims that don't stand up to scrutiny are being made. In the long run, though, man, the smart company that's that's why it's interesting. Like, Apple Apple is not like, it's a publicly traded company. It's not all asking for people to give it money to build Apple Intelligence.
Jason Aten:Right? It's just gotta figure out how to make a really good product that people will actually like using. So
Stephen Robles:I do wonder, and I don't wanna get too philosophical, and we've talked about this before. But if as more news like this comes out, well who knows if it'll be more like this or whatever, but that it might drive people back to traditional reporting, and, like, I want to know the person writing the article I'm reading, because I don't know if I can trust whatever summary is being provided, which Apple is gonna run into this too, because they are also providing article summaries built in Safari. That's not even Apple Intelligence. They're just offering to do that in Safari on the Mac and the iPhone. Right.
Jason Aten:I'm
Stephen Robles:just I'm curious what people's experience is going to be. I'm sure once it's available to millions of people, there's gonna be cases where someone reads the summary. Maybe there's something that's inaccurate. We We don't know. Like, this hasn't happened yet.
Stephen Robles:No one has access to Apple's summary tool yet. But if that if there's even one case where someone reads a summary of an article and there is a misrepresented fact or something just made up or inaccurate, like, that's gonna be a big deal, on Apple.
Jason Aten:Right.
Stephen Robles:The Apple intelligence thing, this has been making a lot of people upset, because this there's this page here, I'll put it in the show notes, this is machinelearning.apple.com, but this is specifically about where Apple trained its foundational models. And there is this little paragraph here on the pretraining. And this is where app this is Apple's website. We train our foundation models on licensed data, including data selected to enhance specific features, as well as publicly available data collected by our web crawler, Applebot. Web publishers have the option to opt out of the use of their web content for Apple Intelligence training with a data usage control, namely the robots dot txt file.
Stephen Robles:The two issues with this, like, for a lot of people doesn't feel great that Apple scoured the open web, you know, questions like, does that include YouTube videos? Like, did they look through transcripts of YouTube videos? Did they, like, scour Twitter? Like, who knows? But also the opt out part, Apple Bot has actually existed before Apple Intelligence because Apple would index pages for Spotlight.
Stephen Robles:That's why, like, I did a whole video comparing Siri to the rabbit arm oh, sorry, Iris dingus. I don't know. I did a video comparing them, and you can even ask Siri today on Ios 17 on your iPhone 13, if you ask it certain questions about movie actors or general knowledge, sometimes, Iris will actually present the answer for you, not in a here are some web results, but it'll just give you the answer, and it'll say where it came from. And that's due to Spotlight, the which reads as Applebot for up until today as indexing that website and getting that information. So Apple Bot might have been allowed by many websites prior to this because it was just spotlight indexing stuff, but now that same Apple bot is including Apple Intelligence, which will mean summaries and other, kinds of LLM style training, which is that's what it did.
Stephen Robles:And, yeah, now you can opt out if you're vox.com, if you're The Wall Street Journal, but it's this is not super clear, but it seems very likely that the Apple's model has already been trained on all the stuff, and opting out now is kind of moot. I mean, if you publish news articles, I guess any new articles going forward would be excluded from the Apple bot. But, yeah, kind of moot on the foundational training.
Jason Aten:Yeah. And I think, you know, you're right about the fact that Apple has been doing this for a long time because there it is trying to just give you answers more quickly for search. I wrote an article for business insider a couple of years ago about how, like, apple is trying to sit. It's weird because they clearly want to send as much traffic to Google search as possible because they make a bucket ton of money doing that. But they are also trying to provide those answers directly from Siri.
Jason Aten:So I have, like, 2 different sets of conflicting feelings about this, and I don't really know where I haven't decided where I land yet because on the one hand, you look at, like, information that is publicly available on the internet was made publicly available on purpose. Right? No one was deceived into publishing a blog post or whatever. That's that's one side of it. But when you did that, you didn't do it thinking that, like, this was not a foreseeable thing at the time when people when we established the way we write things on the Internet And listen, I'm somebody who writes things on the Internet, so I care about this very much.
Jason Aten:I don't have nearly as negative emotional reaction to it as some of the people I've heard over the last couple of weeks talking about it. I don't but I think I think it's especially problematic for Apple, who has generally tried to position itself as being me on the on the side of creators in a way that other brands haven't focused on as much. And it's it you know, you can remember when Apple Music became a thing, and I think it was Taylor Swift who published an open letter talking about, like, the the point at that point was, like, that Apple Music wasn't paying artists during free trials, and Spotify wasn't either. And Taylor Swift's like, well, then you can't have my music. Right?
Jason Aten:Because you're you're getting all of the benefit and the value in upselling customers. And Apple Music, to my understanding now, pays royalties even when you're on a 3 month free trial to those artists, and and they've positioned themselves in that way to to be on the side of creators. And so if you're Federico Vatici and you run Mac stories and you just discovered that Apple is consuming all of the stuff you've written over, however, the last decade or whatever, that is gonna make you feel really weird about it. Right? The but the flip side to that is I don't know how any of this stuff works otherwise.
Jason Aten:Right? Like, the whole point is you have to have content in order to feed them. And maybe what that means is, like and you can argue, okay, well, then Apple and other companies should pay for it. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say, but then you're gonna pay a whole lot more to use it. And I'm not suggesting that that means that Apple shouldn't pay for it.
Jason Aten:I'm just saying this is a super complicated top topic.
Stephen Robles:And that's it. Yeah. And I think the, the Jurassic Park quote, maybe I should have started with that today instead of liar liar, but the, you know, what does the Jeff Goldblum says, we could do it, but we didn't think long enough to see if we should do it kind of thing? And, like, yes, these things don't work, namely LLM models without a ton of data, but the question would be, like, so is it worth it for the creators for these things to work? I'm conflicted as well, like, I don't feel super strongly about it.
Stephen Robles:If it came out that all the transcripts that Apple is now providing for every podcast was part of the training data because that's under the publicly accessible data, since podcasts are just open RSS feeds, I don't know, maybe I would feel a little differently. I'm also like, the content that I make is typically, like, time sensitive. You know, whatever episode I recorded 4 years ago about the iPhone 12, like, it doesn't doesn't matter as much to me. But I also get when people's whole business model has been a blog, and they've had a blog post that for the past 10 years talked about the best way to make a sourdough starter, and that's been like their number one article for years. And then all of a sudden, a large language model comes along, takes that information, and now when you ask ChatChippet what's the best way to do a sourdough starter, it's presenting you that information and really not pointing you back to that website.
Stephen Robles:And even if it did point you back to the website, which is also in that Wired article, such a tiny percentage of people actually click through to that website, like, they see it as a source, but, like, well, they already got the information. There's literally no motivation to actually go visit that website after the fact. So and, again, with Apple Intelligence, if somehow and I think this is why they didn't do, like, a general chatbot thing. You can't ask Apple Intelligence, what's the best sourdough starter? Like, if you want to try and do that, it's gonna send you over to chatgpt, and then it's OpenAI's problem.
Stephen Robles:But I imagine one day, like with Iris and maybe maybe this is I'm not I didn't really get this information directly. I imagine Iris will try to give you those answers based on the training data that Apple Intelligence received. Is that I mean, because you can ask I I don't know this. Let me know if you know. So right now, you can ask Siri oh, sorry, Iris.
Stephen Robles:I I don't know. I don't
Jason Aten:know Iris. Hold on. Here's the thing. I just wanna know I just wanna say this before you go on. I think we should keep it make it our personal mission at Primary Technology to continue saying it because that will convince people to turn it off on their home positive.
Jason Aten:This is the thing that we have to do to make people's life. Because, listen, I think I say this somewhat jokingly because I have a lot of respect for the people who keep mentioning it to us. Yes. But I do think that this is actually a solution in search of a problem because it can't be that big of a problem for them because most people listen to podcasts either in their car. And I understand there was the whole Jerry rigged, car play situation.
Jason Aten:Okay. Or you're wearing AirPods. Right? And so
Stephen Robles:That's how that is how I consume that kind of content apparently, because I get this in videos too. Like, if I ever say it in a video, I get a host of comments that are like every you're setting up my my HomePod every 5 seconds. I guess people are just listening and listen, if you're listening to primary technology out loud and so loud that your entire household can hear it, that's fine. Hello, sir. Hello, family.
Jason Aten:We will say anything. We will say whatever you want. Just tell me
Stephen Robles:what you want me
Jason Aten:to call it.
Stephen Robles:That's why I didn't say the title of that Wired article.
Jason Aten:Just keep
Stephen Robles:it clean. Yeah. Exactly. So right now, if you ask Iris a general knowledge question, like, let me just let me just do it, and let's see what it does. Like, what was the name of Theodore Roosevelt's, riding crew.
Stephen Robles:I don't that's probably a terribly okay. So here we go. So you could see that it actually has a knowledge response. It gave me the answer Roughriders, which I knew it was, and you can't really see it because it's pretty dim, but it says that Wikipedia was the source. So the, Iris does that today, and it's telling you the source, I'm not clicking to that Wikipedia article because I already have the answer.
Stephen Robles:I don't need it.
Jason Aten:Right.
Stephen Robles:So with Apple Intelligence and having been trained on the publicly available web, will it now offer even more answers, maybe even more in-depth answers? And if so, like, I think that's where the rub comes in. Because now if you ask Apple Intelligence, we don't know, it's not out yet. We'll have to see what it does. If you ask it the best way to do a sourdough starter, and it just gives you the information, and there's a little tag at the bottom to, you know, mybakedgoodsdot com, which is someone's personal website they've been running for 10 years, is that going to have a meaningful impact on their business, their livelihood, how they've been creating content.
Stephen Robles:Like, we don't have that answer just yet, but I think that's the consternation.
Jason Aten:Yeah. Well, and I do wanna just say one other thing about what I said because I wanna answer the the criticism that I'm I'm sure is coming, and it's fair because what has happened is if you created something, if you create a video or if I write an article, we are creating some form of value, and we should be extracting the value from it. Right? And in your case, YouTube gets some of the value. And in my case, you know, the publisher gets some of that value.
Jason Aten:And that that's the arrangement that we worked out when we decided to use that particular medium. But if these if when someone else comes along and this has been the criticism with Google for a long time is that it comes along and it is indexing the web. And for a long time, it was the it was still a net positive if you were creating the content because it was sending you enough traffic. And then when you receive traffic, you can monetize that in one of basically three ways. Right?
Jason Aten:You could monetize it from a brand perspective. Maybe you're, like, wanting to start a public speaking career and you wanna establish yourself as a subject matter expert. And so every time someone comes to your website, your name recognition goes up and now you can you can build that brand or you're trying to sell a thing. If you're like writing the sourdough starter thing, maybe you have a bakery that you want to get people to come to. Right?
Jason Aten:Or this is a thing that like photographers would do. You write all these tips about weddings and then people come to your website because they're searching for something and they're like, oh, I should hire you as a photographer. Or the other the other way is through advertising. Right? If you're Mac stories or you're The Verge or you're Inc or you're any of these places, your primary, the Internet's primary source of monetization for a long time, this is true on YouTube has been advertising.
Jason Aten:And so none of those 3 value exchanges happen when someone has just taken all of your content and abstracted you out of it. This is the same thing that's happened with Google Snippets. Right? Like, if if Google just takes the answer from your website and presents it as a snippet at the top and you don't get the click, you created all that value for Google, for the Internet, but you are not receiving any of it in return. That is the part where people are really upset about because the entire the the entire agreement when people set out making content over the last couple of decades was I make a thing and somehow I can monetize it when people, you you know, find value from that thing either because they pay me money or they click on an ad or whatever it might be.
Jason Aten:And that is why this it's like you didn't tell us that you were gonna do this. You didn't tell us you're gonna soak up all this stuff and abstract me out of the equation. That's why people are really upset, and I agree. Like, I think that that's the question that has heard and it's not a and it is a question that is not surprising that most of these companies are not answering because they just don't care. They see it as as source material to be consumed.
Jason Aten:We just expect. Damage. We just expect more from Apple. Right? And that's why that's why you started referencing Joel Jeff Goldblum quotes.
Jason Aten:I was just assuming that you were talking about the scene where they walk up on the giant pile of dinosaur do, and he's like, that's one big pile of BS. That was a Jeff Goldblum quote
Stephen Robles:I thought you were gonna
Jason Aten:go for, but here's what's good for you.
Stephen Robles:Not it. We we have so much other things to get to. I just will say once Apple Intelligence is launched and available on my iPhone 15 Pro or 16 Pro, however that shakes out, I'm gonna ask it. What are the best home kit locks and what are the best MagSafe battery packs? And if I see some link to one of my YouTube videos and it pulled the information from it, I'm gonna flip a table.
Stephen Robles:No.
Jason Aten:Flip a table? Will you please record that too?
Stephen Robles:That'll be a bonus episode.
Jason Aten:I hope so.
Stephen Robles:Just me flipping a table. Alright. There's a bunch of other news I wanna get to. I wanna talk about Vision OS 2 because I did install the beta, iOS 18. Real quick, this is not even an ad, but what it is is that Setapp.
Stephen Robles:We talked about it a couple episodes ago. Setapp is a great way to actually get access to a bunch of applications for $10 a month, and you can get apps like CleanShot X, Ulysses, Jason's writing app, Downey, and other apps that you can't even talk about what they do because it's gonna be on YouTube. And so what you can do is we're actually trying to win the affiliate race. And so they haven't sponsored this episode. No money has changed hands, but there's a link in the show notes.
Stephen Robles:If you wanna try Setapp today, use that link in the show notes, and we, you know, we're just trying to if you if we win this affiliate race, then, we get, like, a bonus thing. And so that's what, that's what we're trying to do. So you could do that, but also you can just support the show directly. We would love for you to do that. $5 a month, $50 a year.
Stephen Robles:You get bonus episodes every week, ad free versions, so I'll cut this portion out. And, you get to yeah. The, I can't say it because it's only in the bonus episode. But anyway, subscribe to the show and and you'll hear all the secret stuff from over there. But if you can't do any of that, 5 star rating review in Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we appreciate that greatly.
Stephen Robles:Subscribe to YouTube channel, which we way over a 1000 subscribers now, so thank you all for doing that as well. And, yeah, back to the show. Apple Pay Later. Apple is actually discontinuing this service. I never used it once, and I actually I don't know if I knew of anyone who used it, but this was like the weird thing where you could break up a purchase into 4 payments.
Stephen Robles:It only was available for purchases from 50 to $1,000 and it seemed like Apple was, like, handling this quasi loan. And in the statement to 9 to 5 Mac, which Apple's doing this more and more often, just kind of releasing statements to, like, 9 to 5 unattributed and not actually doing any kind of official announcement. They're just saying, hey, report this for us. And I guess working I guess they're doing that. I don't know.
Stephen Robles:Is that weird? It's weird. Right?
Jason Aten:It is interesting that 9 to 5 Mac has gotten a lot of these things lately. No. Like Yeah. Credit to them. Like, especially Chance Miller, credit to them.
Jason Aten:I don't know if it's in a there was an interesting, like, debate between he and Eli Patel from The Verge a couple about a month or so ago. I don't know if Apple is just choosing sites that are are a little bit less strict about attribution. And again, that is not shade against 9 to 5 Mac. It's just The Verge has the most strict policy. They just won't publish a statement without a name on it.
Jason Aten:And Apple historically very much wants to not do that. And in a lot of cases, I think, like, I think 9 to 5 max position is like, but we wanna get the information out. And in our judgment, in this case, it's we're fine with the fact that it's an Apple spokesperson says.
Stephen Robles:So that's what that's the whole statement. Starting later this year, users across the globe, this is Apple statement to 9 to 5, will be able to access installment loans offered through credit and debit cards as well as lenders, but basically not us. So not Right. We're not gonna be doing Apple Pay Later anymore. So, yeah, that's the end of that.
Stephen Robles:I did get an increase on my Apple credit card, which, I assume that means the new Mac Pro is coming out. Mhmm. That's what that means. That's what that means. Right?
Stephen Robles:If you I don't know what it mean. Increases.
Jason Aten:But I my response to you is just think about how many useless AI gadgets you'll be able to buy now.
Stephen Robles:Never again. Never again, Jason. Never again. This this thing right here, I'm I'm right on the edge because I sold the subscription, Jason. As soon as I cancel the subscription of the HumanAI pin, it's gonna become a paperweight, but also I'm not using it.
Stephen Robles:But it
Jason Aten:sounds as heavy of a paperweight.
Stephen Robles:Not that heavy. It's not
Jason Aten:even good for that.
Stephen Robles:Because I can't even use the egg because it might catch on fire. So who do
Jason Aten:people do people still use paperweights, Steven? Sorry. That feels like a conversation for your other podcast podcast ever mind.
Stephen Robles:People look I never use the paperweights. I don't
Jason Aten:think people use paper anymore. I don't know anyone who's ever used a paperweight.
Stephen Robles:I don't think Yeah. I don't think so. Yeah. Anyway Like
Jason Aten:what is the scenario you'd use a paperweight for? You just I have some papers on my desk and I don't want them to blow away inside my office and so I put
Stephen Robles:something on them? I guess you're gonna open your office window? Maybe? I don't
Jason Aten:know.
Stephen Robles:I will say when I was in the orchestra, my wife is in an orchestra now, sometimes you have outdoor gigs and so you do have to, like, clamp down the thing, but we don't use paperweights. We use, like, clips. Like the, you know, the big the black clips that you squeeze or whatever. Anyway.
Jason Aten:Anyway, I wanna apologize to the paperweight brigade. Don't leave us a 3 star review just because I'm questioning whether you're real.
Stephen Robles:If if there's anyone that gets mad about paperweights, they will find you. Whatever troll The other
Jason Aten:guy at pod or at primary tech dot f m, send me your email.
Stephen Robles:That's all good. It legit works. The email legit works. The other guy at primary tech dot f m. Speaking of human AI pin, this is gonna be a 30 second story.
Stephen Robles:Ken Casienda who worked at Apple for 15 years, he was the inventor of iPhone autocorrect, author of the book Creative Selection, was working at Humane and then unceremoniously, John Gruber I think pointed this out on Daring Fireball, basically added Humane to his past work.
Jason Aten:Mhmm.
Stephen Robles:So seems like he is no longer at Humane. Yeah. Does not bode does not bode well, Jason. And he
Jason Aten:didn't make any kind of announcement. It's just he updated his LinkedIn as you do and his Twitter bio as you do. But here's the thing. It's kind of like it's actually brilliant. And actually, his book, Creative Selection, is absolutely one of the best breeds, especially if what you want to know is like some of the lore of how the iPhone became a thing because he was there at that time.
Jason Aten:And it, but it's sort of like when you leave a company and you're not supposed to, they really frown on you talking about it. You just update your Twitter bio and everyone will find, especially when you're Ken Kachanda people
Stephen Robles:will know. Yes. It's like, I don't know, maybe he had to sign the NDA or whatever so he just put it in his Twitter bio but Yeah. So, listen, it's not looking good for this guy. This guy, I don't even know.
Stephen Robles:I I almost feel weird putting it, like, in the background of videos now too because I feel like it's gonna generate a bunch of hate comments and I don't I'm I'm gonna get dislikes on videos. I don't
Jason Aten:even wanna do that. Or catch fire, which could really be
Stephen Robles:good for the views. Well, that is true. That is true. Apple launched a new web page on their site called Help Me Choose. So if you ever need help choosing a Mac, I thought it would be fun to just do this real quick.
Stephen Robles:It'll suggest a Mac for you. I actually haven't done this. Have you played around
Jason Aten:with Mac? Whole bunch of times, and I have some thoughts, but go ahead.
Stephen Robles:Oh, really? Well, let's see. Okay. It's asking you I'm gonna for the audio listeners. If you watch this, you can see the website on YouTube.
Stephen Robles:But alright. It says to tell us what will you use your Mac for? Essentials, work, education or creative hobbies? I'll go with creative hobbies, I guess. I imagine video will be in there.
Stephen Robles:How do you get creative outside of work? Editing photos, creating content, designing, coding, making music, making videos. I'm going to do making videos. I guess this is not you can't choose multiple it seems. Like, yeah, it oh no, you can select multiple.
Stephen Robles:Okay, I didn't know. And where will you use your Mac? I'm gonna say in a fixed place. I like a desktop computer. Will you plug in any of the following?
Stephen Robles:Displays, external storage, media equipment, all the things. I plug in everything to my computer. Lastly, do you have a budget in mind? Oh boy, Jason. Here we go.
Stephen Robles:I'll say $35100 is the budget. Let's see what it recommends. Finding your perfect matches.
Jason Aten:Yep.
Stephen Robles:I see the little, magic symbol, little stars. Mac mini. The first the first recommendation is a Mac Mini for $1300 and a 16 inch MacBook Pro. Jason, I am offended and appalled that they did not recommend the Mac Studio. I'm gonna change my budget.
Stephen Robles:I'm gonna say, give me whatever.
Jason Aten:Yeah. I mean, can you buy a Mac Studio for less than $35100?
Stephen Robles:It starts at 3,000, I thought. No. It starts at 2,000. It starts at look. Even with a budget of 35100, it's not recommending the Mac Studio.
Jason Aten:Because you said creative hobbies, Steven.
Stephen Robles:Now wait a minute.
Jason Aten:Wait a minute. Hobbies.
Stephen Robles:I mean, I I said, what do you do? Tell us what you will use
Jason Aten:as a whole. Hobbies.
Stephen Robles:Oh, because I said okay. Well, let me do let me do work. Let me do oh, you can select let me do work and creative hobbies. Yeah. I do all the things.
Stephen Robles:I do audio
Jason Aten:for you. Select any of them.
Stephen Robles:Oh, I see. Oh, there's so many things I have to select. I see now. I have to select all the things. So, yeah, I create the content.
Stephen Robles:I make the videos. Okay. And, almost finished. I see a racing flag now. Final oh, I get more questions now.
Stephen Robles:Mhmm. Where will you use, in a fixed place like my desk? Will you plug it in any of the plug in everything. And then, what is your budget? Whatever you want.
Jason Aten:I don't know. You up got my credit card limit. I have all the money, Apple. You tell me how much my budget is.
Stephen Robles:There it is. The Mac Studio. Now it recommends c starts at 2,000. M2 max 32 gigs of unified memory 5 12 SSD, which
Jason Aten:is crime. 5 It's a crime. It's a crime. It's a crime. SSD.
Stephen Robles:You told
Jason Aten:me you had all the money and it recommended a 5. This is my problem. Why did it recommend a 512 SSD? Maybe because you said you're gonna plug in external storage, I guess.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. But that's oh, yeah. But, anyway, well, I'm okay. So you have to you have to tell it, listen. This is not just a hobby.
Stephen Robles:This this is my this is my job, and then you'll recommend the the Mac the Mac daddy as it says. So okay. Well, what are your thoughts on this one?
Jason Aten:Well, if as I went through I went through this a bunch of times. And the funny thing was and so I just proved that this is not exclusively, but every time, regardless of what I chose as my budget, it just picked the thing closest to that. And I was like, so none of the other questions actually matter. Just tell us how much money you're gonna spend. Now, in your case, you told that you had all the money and it still only recommended you a $2,000 computer, which fine.
Jason Aten:That's great. I actually add some credibility to it. And so it does feel like it's pretty good. It's hard for you and I to take it seriously because we we already should be able to predict exactly what these answers should be. Right?
Jason Aten:Like, because people ask us this all the time. And so I think it's actually great. I think it's for people who are trying to figure it out. And if you what I like about this is it is essentially telling us what Apple thinks about these products, which is usually different than what we think about these products. Right?
Jason Aten:The Mac mini is a hobby thing that is very capable. Like, you you kind of stuck your nose up at it, but let's be honest, an M2 Pro MacBook or Mac Mini is probably the most capable desktop most people should consider if they're not going to buy an iPad.
Stephen Robles:That is true.
Jason Aten:Right. And so
Stephen Robles:Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Aten:And so I I you and you look at it that way. And maybe one of the reasons that it recommended you a $2,000 Mac Studio is your budget $35100. You still gotta buy a studio display. Right? That Mac Studio is useless without that.
Jason Aten:So I think it's great. I think it's, like, super one of the things that Apple has done really well over the since the pandemic, well during the pandemic and continuing on is trying to recreate the in store experience for people online. Right? So they move the Today at Apple classes online for quite a while. There are a lot of different experiences that you can have online.
Jason Aten:You can chat with, like, a a represent like, you know, if you're buying an iPhone and you're going through and you have questions, you can just, like, click on a thing and a person will start talking to you and they'll walk through your order with you. They've started to do a lot of these things and this to me feels like it's the most logical next step where it's like, help me choose the Mac because there are a lot more Macs than there are iPads or I I mean, they should do one of these for the iPad. It'd be really interesting to see what they That would be interesting
Stephen Robles:right there.
Jason Aten:What would you write about? Software. That. I'm gonna write about help me choose an iPad. I cannot wait.
Stephen Robles:That is that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Alright. So new things in all the the betas and the Vision OS. I I charged up my Apple Vision Pro.
Stephen Robles:I put the beta 2.0 on it.
Jason Aten:Yep.
Stephen Robles:And you know, there's a few differences that are cool. I wanna talk I'm gonna come back to spatial photos because you were saying that that was like the standout thing. But the new gestures, like to go home and control center, they're actually pretty cool Yeah.
Jason Aten:And I find
Stephen Robles:them useful. You can rearrange the home icons, which wasn't actually as difficult as I thought it would be. Like it's pretty easy, like to tap and hold on an icon, drag it to either side, just like you do on your iPhone or your iPad. That was cool. I moved Juno from Christian Seelig all the way to the home screen so I could watch YouTube videos, as you do.
Jason Aten:Yeah.
Stephen Robles:But the one feature that you said this was worth it. I saw a bunch of people saying was and I was skeptical. The spatial photos, which basically means it will take photos that you've have from the past. You didn't have to take them any special way, and it will use machine learning to cut out the subjects, figure out different depth maps of whatever is in the picture, and make the photo 3 d. It's a subtle 3 d effect, but very noticeable.
Stephen Robles:And not only can you, like, see the picture and kinda move your head around a little bit to see the 3 d effect, you can then enter kind of this panorama mode, which zooms the photo in and more, like, surrounds you. And I have to say, it is a very compelling feature. I did it on a couple photos, like family photos, as, like, with multiple people in the in the photo. It worked very well, and it's a very cool experience. I did try it on an old like, a really old photo, like, from, like, my parents' wedding day.
Stephen Robles:That photo did not cut out as well. Maybe I don't know how it works with photos not taken on iPhone. Like, if you just, like, scanned in an old photo, which is basically what this was, it was an old photo scanned in, it didn't really separate much of anything at all. But it wasn't super high quality photo, not high resolution, not taken on iPhone. So I'm curious if it can do it with that kind of stuff.
Stephen Robles:But for photos taken on iPhone, it is very cool. I have to get this one.
Jason Aten:Well and I don't I wanna just be clear. I don't know that this feature is worth it because, again, the bar No. No. No. Buying a vision pro is very high, but it is you know, I have said it previously that my favorite thing about using the Vision Pro, which I still use every day, it's actually sitting right over here.
Jason Aten:I still use it every day. I just I can't stop using it till I write the article and I haven't had time to write my I use the vision pro everyday article. So I'm sticking I'm sticking to the bit. But, the panoramic photos in my mind before was were just like, the fact that, like, I just tell even if you don't think you're ever gonna buy a vision pro, every time you go somewhere cool, take a panoramic photo. It because then if you ever have a chance to look at them on a vision pro or whatever comes after it, just unreal.
Jason Aten:So these are so good, Steven. Like it's in the, I did it with, photos I took with like my Nikon and from Lightroom, exported them for Lightroom into the photos library and did it. And it's fine. Cause what it's essentially doing is just mapping it into 2 sets, you know, stereo image so that you have one for each eye. Cause that's the 3 d effect.
Jason Aten:It doesn't even have to do that much. It's like just creating 2 different versions of it and showing 1 version to 1 eye and one version to the other eye. And that gives you that spatial effect. They're really careful not to call it 3 d images. They're calling them spatial photos.
Jason Aten:And and but it is just so good. Like, it was almost visceral, especially if you have people that if you have a person that's essentially the image is full size of what that person would be standing in your room and you make it spatial, it's like it's like you're it's, you know, you do I feel like you do lose a little bit of resolution when it does that. Like, it's, you know, it it doesn't it doesn't have quite the same fidelity, which is understandable. It's like doing some voodoo stuff to it, like, to make it happen. But it's almost like you're standing at, like, the what is the thing at Disney?
Jason Aten:The wax museum, their hall of presidents or whatever. Like, it's like, this is so real. But, I mean, I know you're not a real person standing there. Like, it was Yes. It was so good.
Jason Aten:And it does work with not people as well. I took so I should actually send you a couple of these. You'd probably lose your mind. But, like, I took some of the photos I took at WWDC and I made them spatial photos and it was like you were there. It was just like, it's just unreal.
Jason Aten:So they, they, they nailed it with this one. And the fact that you can, you no longer have to wear a vision pro in order to take special photos to look at, you can just use any photos, a super big win, Great feature. This is not a practical thing because but I've looked at more photos in the vision pro in the last couple of days than I've looked at on my iPhone or my Mac probably in a year.
Stephen Robles:That's interesting. I I need to start seeing more panoramas because I will say that that effect is very compelling also. And I've taken some I took someone I, like, used to travel more working for a travel company, and so it is cool. Not worth it, but speaking of
Jason Aten:Not worth buying one, but yes. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:Here you go. Not with buying it, but 2 other kind of follow-up news bits. There was a developer session at Dub Dub. I'll put the link. You can just watch this session if you would like.
Stephen Robles:But there's third party apps are actually gonna have an API to build in spatial video and photo capture to the apps. So makers like Halide and other, like, video apps like Blackmagic Camera, I assume, you'll be able to, they can build in the ability to capture spatial photos and video and so you won't have to use the stock camera app, which is cool. Maybe we'll see some fun apps and use cases from that. But also there was this news and I do have to give Mac stories or no, sorry. This is macrumors.com.
Stephen Robles:Credit for this image. This image where they have, like, the Apple Vision Pro kind of, like, shadowy, but it looks like the number 2, and it's about the Apple Vision Pro 2. Kudos to whoever made that image. Very good. This is actually quoting an information article, which I know Jason's about to say, like, this is not the original source.
Stephen Robles:There was an information article. And I would share the information article, but that look what this looks like. Yeah. Okay? This is this is what it looks like to try and click an information article.
Jason Aten:And it looks that way if you pay for the information too, by the way, as Gruber pointed out recently.
Stephen Robles:That's what I'm saying. Even if you pay for the information, it is a ridiculous amount of pop ups and banners. So yeah, I'll put the link to the information article in the show notes. If you have a subscription, maybe you can read it. If you if you can get past all the banners, which yeah.
Stephen Robles:But anyway, Apple reportedly suspended work on Apple Vision Pro 2. And on the face of it, these headlines are like, oh, wow, Apple is giving up on Vision Pro. Not not the case, and this is something that Mark Gurman, even on social media, was kind of correcting these headlines, being like, he stated the next Apple Vision product is going to be a cheaper version, not a quote unquote pro version. And so the fact that they are stopping development or suspending work on Vision Pro 2 does not mean they are not making any Vision products anymore. It just means that Apple Vision Pro 2, the 2nd generation of the high end model, is likely farther out.
Stephen Robles:I think Gurman said something like the end of 2026, which would be, you know, 2 years from now, and that the cheaper version, whatever it's called, Apple Vision Air, maybe just Apple Vision. What do you think? Are they gonna put Air on the end or just
Jason Aten:I don't I don't know, but this does make sense. They've got probably a half 1000000 of these things sitting in a warehouse somewhere that they're haven't sold. So what are they working on the second one for? And so They'll
Stephen Robles:be able to sell yours as refurbished ones if you ever
Jason Aten:accidentally Right. So there you go.
Stephen Robles:There you go. But so this is not the case that Apple Vision Pro is, like, dead. It is just that the Pro model is probably farther out as the 2nd generation and that the cheaper version will be coming out in the interim, whenever that is. I think, Kerwin might have said next year, 2025, but we'll see. So, that's it.
Stephen Robles:I don't even know if that's news. The news is that it's not news.
Jason Aten:Well, what you just did is a service in to sort of correct what people assumed was happening, which is that they are discontinuing the vision product. That's not what they're saying. This would have almost been like if the report to come out that, hey, Apple is pausing work on the successor to the HomePod and people are like, there's not gonna be any more HomePods. No. They just made the HomePod mini first.
Jason Aten:Right? And then they did come back and revamp the HomePod, the the OG HomePod, the OG pod. Right. And so that's that's kinda what they're doing with the vision.
Stephen Robles:Right. Now I wanna get into just little tidbits of iOS 18 and Apple Intelligence, learnings from the last week or so. And first up, iOS 18, specifically HomeKit stuff, number 1, you can actually choose a home hub in iOS 18 come this fall. So, you know, before home hubs are like Apple just chooses it or, you know, your smart home just chooses it at random. Sometimes it's a HomePod, sometimes it's an Apple TV, who knows?
Stephen Robles:But in iOS Sometimes
Jason Aten:it's an iPad Pro that you leave the house with.
Stephen Robles:Sometimes it's the HomePod mini at the farthest reaches of the house. So and before, the only way to kind of, like, trick it into picking the the hub you want is like unplugging all the things and then letting it find the Apple TV you want and plug everything back in, which is ridiculous. So coming in iOS 18, you'll actually be able to specify a specific home hub to be used, which is great. Thumbs up for that. Then the other smart home feature that was announced this was actually announced during the keynote, and I was curious about this too, was when it comes to home key locks, and this is reported by Jennifer Tuohy, that these new locks you'll be able to just walk up to and it will unlock based on your proximity.
Stephen Robles:So you know, home key right now, you have to tap with your Apple Watch or your iPhone. Not physically tap, but just Wow, there's my thumbs up reaction. I forgot to turn reactions off. Let me turn those off real quick. I can't even do it.
Stephen Robles:Anyway, so, you know, right now, home key, you have to tap your Apple Watch or your iPhone and then it unlocks. And the new feature with iOS 18 is that just walking up to it by proximity, if you have a bunch of stuff in your hands and you can't tap a device, that the lock will just unlock automatically. Well, that's using a u one chip, the ultra wideband chip, which is also what's in like AirTag and stuff like that for precision finding, but any and all home key locks that currently exist, and I have tested all 5 that are available in the US right now. I literally have videos reviewing every one of them and I have multiple installed right now.
Jason Aten:Steven Moonlights is a locksmith apparently. He's replaced so many smart locks.
Stephen Robles:I can I can replace the lock? No problem now. None of them are gonna support this feature because this feature is going to require the ultra wideband chip to be built into the lock, and none of these locks have that. So if you want this, like, open proximity feature, you're gonna have to buy a new lock. And yes, I'll be reviewing them all if and when they are available.
Stephen Robles:A car is probably going to be one of the first out the gate and then maybe level lock, but we'll see. So that's that's unfortunate, but that's that's how that works. Do you have a HomeKit lock?
Jason Aten:I do. Remember, it doesn't work. It just drops wifi and it defeats the whole point of having a
Stephen Robles:Which one is it? Which one is it?
Jason Aten:Should I say? I think it's the level lock plus pro max hub thing. I don't know what they call it.
Stephen Robles:You have the level lock connect to the little thing too? The little white puck with it?
Jason Aten:No. There's nothing like that. It's just connected to wifi.
Stephen Robles:It's actually not connected to WiFi.
Jason Aten:No. It's connected to Bluetooth or thread or matter or something.
Stephen Robles:It doesn't it doesn't have thread. This is
Jason Aten:What is the Bluetooth connected to?
Stephen Robles:Don't get me started on this, Jason, because it's connected to Bluetooth to your HomePod or Apple TV, whatever's closer. That's what it communicates to for home care.
Jason Aten:So I have to basically put a HomePod next to my front door is what you're saying?
Stephen Robles:Yes. And LevelLock actually released a newer model of their LevelLock Plus with connect, which is this little white puck that supposedly gives the LevelUp WiFi, but what it really does is connect to the lock via Bluetooth and then connect to your WiFi network, and it acts as like a bridge.
Jason Aten:So it's basically like what the Lutron stuff does. They have their own little router that connects by Ethernet to your network and then they do their own little thing, which is way more reliable. Like, those things never fail ever.
Stephen Robles:Right. If if you wanted something that connected to your Wi Fi, the Yale Assure Lock 2 with WiFi module, because you can get it with or without, that connects to WiFi. And the Schlage Encode Plus connects to WiFi. And the Schlage Encode Plus is the only home key lock that has thread built in. The only one.
Stephen Robles:And that one actually has the fastest response time because of thread. So
Jason Aten:Well, my thing is they they sent it to me to review, and my review is it does a really good job of keeping people out. It's a deadbolt lock, but it also unfortunately keeps us out because we can't unlock the door without a key, and none of us know we don't carry keys. Like, although that to be fair, the little they give you cards, like, hotel room cards, those still work. Right? Because those are just, like, NFC or whatever.
Jason Aten:But that's why I'm, like, shouldn't my Apple Watch just NFC work? And none of it none of it works. I mean Yeah. But, again, it it is a lock. It's just not very smart.
Stephen Robles:I will put, my video in the show notes of reviewing all the home key locks because
Jason Aten:That'd be great.
Stephen Robles:There you go. You could you could see that there. The passwords app in iOS 18, apparently there's not gonna be a way to favorite items in the password app, which is unfortunate. I do think the passwords app needs like a favorited section for like, you know, most used things. But apparently, on the Mac, macOS Sequoia, the passwords app will have a menu bar, a tool, so you can access your Icloud passwords from the menu bar, and that will remember your recently used passwords.
Stephen Robles:Mhmm. So you'll actually be able to see which ones you recently used. You can't favorite or pin them, but recently used ones will be in that menu bar password thing. So that's cool.
Jason Aten:Couldn't you just make, like, a group and not share it with anybody?
Stephen Robles:That is a hacky way to do it. Yes.
Jason Aten:From the shortcuts guy, that is a hacky way to do it. From the guy who makes a shirt every time I say, can you do this thing? He's like, well, you could make a shortcut that would do that. I'm going to write that down. That is a hacky way to do it because
Stephen Robles:That is a hacky way to do it. Listen. Anyway, so that's that. Shortcuts, there's a bunch of new shortcuts actions that were discovered. Apple Books has a bunch of shortcuts, like, you could change the page animation.
Stephen Robles:My reactions keep popping up now. I thought I'd turned them off. So disable my reactions in my word. You like, books has some new actions, reminders has some new actions. The if statement is going to have multiple conditionals, which is incredible.
Stephen Robles:So yes, that is the yes, that's the one. Which means you'll be able to do, like, if I am away from home and it's a weekday, then do these things. And before, if you wanted to do that in shortcuts, you had to, like, multiple if statements and it was a pain in the neck. So anyway, if statement, that's yeah. That's gonna be good.
Jason Aten:I don't know what any of that means. I only know I only have 2 shortcuts. 1 is text my wife that I'm headed home and the other one is new article idea. That's it.
Stephen Robles:Listen. Listen. I tell people, even if there's 1 or 2 shortcuts that you use regularly, I think it's worth it. I think it's worth it. We talked last week, now going into the final, like, Apple intelligence roundup, we talked last week about, like, which way is the money going between OpenAI and Apple or the ChatGPT integration, Mark Kermon from Bloomberg reporting that there is no money going either way.
Stephen Robles:And this was a theory that you had mentioned. I forgot who you quoted you cited last week. It doesn't seem like there's any money exchanging hands. It's a mutually beneficial relationship and so we'll see how long it is mutually beneficial and how long Apple will want or when Apple will want Chachi Petit to pay. But, also, you know, one of the things Tim Cook said during the keynote, or no, I think it was Craig Federighi, is that one day no, it wasn't either of them.
Stephen Robles:I forgot who the presenter was. That you'll be able to access multiple LLMs built into Apple Intelligence, And, you know, at that point, you might have assumed they didn't state these names, but at that point you might have assumed perplexity or llama. And now it's like, well, maybe you won't have that many choices one day.
Jason Aten:Right. Well, so Craig Vetter, you did call out Google Gemini at the later conversation that he and j g did with I Justine. So he they they very clearly they were like, we will we would like to have a deal with Google Gemini. If anyone out there is listening from Google Gemini, call us. We would like to talk to you and we won't give you any
Stephen Robles:money, but
Jason Aten:we would like very much to do a deal.
Stephen Robles:Right. We you could also do the, you know, just like an add on. You know, Google's already paying for the search engine default. Just do a little, upgrade. You know what I mean?
Stephen Robles:A little Apple case.
Jason Aten:Can you just imagine the Eddie q phone phone call? Hey. We got a deal for you. No. We won't give you any money, but we got a deal for you.
Jason Aten:We're going to pay you an exposure. And as somebody who spent a lot of time as a photographer, that is the worst thing you could possibly hear is, Oh, it'll be good for exposure.
Stephen Robles:Did you see
Jason Aten:my mortgage with exposure, by the way?
Stephen Robles:Did you see the Eddie Q Sam Altman memes?
Jason Aten:Yes. They were
Stephen Robles:going around. There's the one picture from Dub Dub.
Jason Aten:The best thing about it is most people don't know that that's Eddie Q. So they don't fully understand, like, this is the most shrewd negotiator that Apple has ever had. And he is, like, yeah. He's the guy they send in.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. He's he's the guy I just think it's so like, Eddy Q used to be in the keynotes, you know,
Jason Aten:if those who
Stephen Robles:remember. For
Jason Aten:services, yeah.
Stephen Robles:For services, you know, he would talk about the Itunes and then Apple Music, sometimes talk about stuff. And if you don't know what ADQ looks like, here's the picture. I don't know why this was the first result. This is from Japan Times, but I'll put the link in the show.
Jason Aten:We're paying them an exposure right now.
Stephen Robles:There you go. I scraped this website for this photo. Here's, eddyq on the right and that's Sam Altman on the left. This was taken at Dub Dub. And the meme was, you know, caption this.
Stephen Robles:What is Eddie Q telling Sam Altman? Yeah. And, I think one of the best one was someone said the Darth Vader quote, I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further.
Jason Aten:I mean and to be fair, like, Eddie q is the guy who transformed the music industry. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, he is the person that made it happen that songs would be available on iTunes for 99¢. Right? And then Yeah.
Jason Aten:Over time, he is the person who is like, he is the negotiator for when they need a deal. He is the the services side of it anyway. I mean, it's Tim Cook or Jeff, Williams. If it's like, we need to get this part made cheaper, that's different. But it's like it's amazing how influenced in the history of Apple.
Jason Aten:And, yeah, he has a much lower profile than any of the other people. Like, he didn't even get to be on Phil Schiller's plane in the keynote. Like, that's that's just so disappointing.
Stephen Robles:Well, I mean, so I I and I mean this respectfully. Because Eddie Q has not been in keynotes recently, like, I haven't seen him in a while. And when that photo first started circulating around, I was like, oh, man, AQ. He looks older, you know, because it's been Mhmm. Multiple years since I've seen him.
Stephen Robles:So maybe that's why he wasn't in the plane. Although, he could have been in the in the copilot seat next to Phil Schiller. He could have
Jason Aten:done that. Oh, he could have. But I think he spends a lot of time, like, buying movies for Apple TV Plus. Like, I'm pretty sure that's a lot of what he does. And he goes to, like, the Hollywood stuff and
Stephen Robles:Well, I just I I I would love I mean, this will never happen, but maybe maybe one day we'll read an account of an Eddie q negotiation. Because if you remember him from those older keynotes, like, he was, like, very jovial and bubbly, like, not not someone that you would think is, like, a vicious ruthless negotiator. And he there's pictures of him at, like, Golden State Warrior games, like, on the front like, on the courtside seats, like, yelling and being, you know, gregarious, all this kind of stuff. And I'm, like, I wanna know what this guy is like in negotiating. Like, does he just, like, turn it on and become, like, I don't know.
Jason Aten:I mean, the jovial ones are the most ruthless negotiators because you feel really, really good about it and the conversation goes really well, and then you get up and realize there was a blade through your chair and now you're bleeding out on the floor.
Stephen Robles:You're just you lost your pants and you had no idea what happened. Yeah.
Jason Aten:Okay. What did we just agree to? He was smiling the whole time.
Stephen Robles:That is pretty true. He's, like, laughing, making jokes. You're signing stuff. You didn't even read the contract. Right.
Stephen Robles:That's pretty good. I wanna I wanna the last thing we'll talk about is Genmoji, but I just wanna run through a couple of the things I discovered. We talked about the Apple Watch, or you you have said for many months that the Apple Watch is the AI device that, you know, who who need, you know, AI pin, Apple Watch Ultra, like, you know, you don't need it. As far as Apple Intelligence and the devices it runs on, it's just the iPhone 15 Pro and M Series iPads and Macs. But, we did gather that the Apple Watch will get notification summaries on the watch, which is an Apple intelligence feature.
Stephen Robles:Now, unclear I assume it has to be connected to a 15 Pro Mhmm. Or 16 Pro when that comes out in order to get that. But it will have that one Apple intelligence feature and maybe others, but it will have that one. So that's interesting. And also oh, I guess that that's all I'm reading my
Jason Aten:notes here. That's it. Never mind. Just pause.
Stephen Robles:That was it. Cut everything out. Well
Jason Aten:well, I think you're right.
Stephen Robles:Where's Eddie Q?
Jason Aten:I think you're okay. Eddie q was smiling at you. You got real distracted there for a minute and wondering what you just bought.
Stephen Robles:I started saying something else, then Eddie q was like, man, don't say it. Don't say
Jason Aten:it. Honey, do you know where the deed is to the house? Cause I'm really nervous about Eddie Q showing up right now. No, but I think, I think it's, I mean, the watch is a very capable device and have its own, but it is also an accessory of your phone. And so, you know, if you can talk to, I went this whole episode without having to say it with, you can talk to your iPhone without having to, you know, you can do it on your watch, then I would assume that that connection will remain true with your watch.
Jason Aten:So even if you did have an older watch, but it was paired to an iPhone 15 pro or 15 pro max or whatever in the future, that you will still be able to do a lot of that stuff. Just the on device stuff would be running on your phone. And then it makes total sense that notification summaries would happen on the watch because all it's doing is pushing a notification from your phone. The watch is not independently getting notifications. So
Stephen Robles:Right. And you would, you would not get it if you're on cellular on the watch, you know, assuming it has I
Jason Aten:think that's probably true. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:So last thing before we get to the poll, the personal tech part where our community voted on magic mouse versus trackpad and all of that, I'll put a couple of other articles in the show notes about private cloud compute. Apple had a long article about that. Jason had an awesome article about the Lego headquarters that he visited. I showed my kids That's
Jason Aten:the longest article I've ever written.
Stephen Robles:It was good. I I read it and I showed my kids the pictures and I told them about the the secret chambers with all the years of Lego sets. So which that picture wasn't in the article. We that wasn't exclusive to primary technology. We showed that right here.
Jason Aten:Well, so all the articles that were in the all the images that were in the article were from a part of photographer that was hired to come in. The one I gave you was a art of was a photo I took. So you guys got an exclusive Jason a 3 That's
Stephen Robles:right. Original. Oh, and I just realized that was during the bonus episode. That actually wasn't even during
Jason Aten:the thing.
Stephen Robles:So so, you know, there you go. Bonus episodes. But you had an article, I'm gonna share it and you're gonna you're just gonna see what I see, Jason. This is all I can do. This is your article Mhmm.
Stephen Robles:Which is a subscribing premium. Which had to say, inc, reasonable subscription when compared to the information and others. But, let's see. If I jump into reader mode Oh, okay. There we go.
Jason Aten:I was gonna tell you that, but, yeah, works real well.
Stephen Robles:You can jump into reader mode and I could just read the entire article. Don't do that. Payforinc.com. Support Jason. Just click
Jason Aten:on a couple ads. Just go there and click on something.
Stephen Robles:That'll be fine. Click on something.
Jason Aten:There's a lot of them. There's a lot of them.
Stephen Robles:But you hate yeah. That's funny. But you feel you feel strongly about, Genmoji and its, and its success. So how do you what do you feel about Genmoji?
Jason Aten:Well, my my biggest thing is, like, emoji was a specific standard, right? Every year there, when they release a new standard of the Unicode standard, they add a certain number of emoji and everybody gets the same lens. Right? Every device that uses emoji well, maybe some device is limited, but for the most part, if you're using the Unicode, like the emoji, they look different on Slack versus the Android versus an iPhone. But it they because they're based on text.
Jason Aten:Right? They're just a text code that the phone displays as a specific thing. And Apple just killed that basically because now there is not that set group of emoji. You want the perfect emoji for something in the current library of, I think it's like almost 38100 emojis doesn't have it. You can just make your own.
Jason Aten:You're just making up in my like, it's like there's this there's this group of it's like a consortium, right? And Apple's a part of it and Matt is a part of it and Google's a part of it and whatever are the ones that decide. Eddie Q is in a room with Mark Zuckerberg and it's like, this is gonna be a great emoji. Mark Zuckerberg is like, I'm not sure. He's like, it's gonna be great.
Jason Aten:And then they then that's how the emojis get picked. That's probably not true. But my point is the pool of people who get to decide which emoji you should be able to use on your phone is now everyone with an iPhone. Well, everyone with an iPhone that can do this. Right.
Jason Aten:But I think this is the thing though. That's gonna get your kids to be like, I need an iPhone 16. Can I please get a iPhone 16?
Stephen Robles:It just hit me as you were saying that That's how the iPhone 16 becomes a super cycle.
Jason Aten:Absolutely.
Stephen Robles:Is because probably not just the Pro. It will probably be the 16 and the 16 Pro. Put 8 gigs of RAM in there. Now the base model 16 can do Genmoji. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:That's the super cycle.
Jason Aten:Well, and, historically, people, it's we do know that it's true that that emoji are one of the things that get people to upgrade the operating system. Like you people will upgrade to the new version of iOS because they will get access to the emoji, which to me, I use, like, 5 emoji. That's it. I don't need Genmoji. I don't need 38100 of them.
Jason Aten:It's like thumbs up smiley face and I'm crying. I'm a parent. Listen, my emotional range is like pretty limited to this is cool. I'm really excited.
Stephen Robles:What did you do now? The inside out the inside out emotions. But as much
Jason Aten:Yes. Exactly. Basically, that's about what it is. Although, I don't text my children fear very often. I just want them to feel it on their own.
Jason Aten:Anyway, so I think that I think that that's what's gonna get people to actually buy phones is now you have that. So There
Stephen Robles:you go. That's probably it. Alright. Final segment, our personal tech. I wanna show the poll because we talked about my, appreciation for the magic mouse.
Stephen Robles:Had a lot of people say they also use it, and in our poll here in the community, you can still go in and vote if you want to jump in there, and it's, the pinned post in the conversations space. Magic Mouse got 21%, Magic Trackpad 25%, and that tied with the MX Master Mouse, also at 25%. And there was a couple that also used a trackball mouse, which listen, I've seen trackball mice. I've tried to use it. Kudos to you who make it work.
Stephen Robles:I don't know. I don't know how you do that.
Jason Aten:My brain is not capable of figuring out that that logistics. I just, I can't.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. I can't do it. It's yeah. And then other there were some other models that people said in there in the comments, so you can go check that out. But, yeah, magic trackpad and MX Master were tied.
Stephen Robles:What's the people use the magic mouse? It's not nobody.
Jason Aten:Hey. I've been using one for a little bit. I'm giving it another shot.
Stephen Robles:Oh, okay. There you go. I mean, look. That's that's right there.
Jason Aten:Yeah.
Stephen Robles:What I do. A lot of people said, on threads and x, like, they really like the Magic Mouse. It just needs to either be, you know, charged so you don't have to flip it over or Apple should just make a wireless charging pad or a new model Magic Mouse. This way you could just put it on the pad at night, take it off. I'd be down for that.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. But
Jason Aten:okay. That's a good point. Now we don't need to spend a lot of time on this. But if the argument is I can't use my magic mouse when it's charging because I have to turn it over, you still couldn't do that while it's charging wirelessly. And on that note, I actually heard I think it was I think it was Gruber maybe responding to the MKBHD Tim Cook interview where he asked him about it where it's like this design is actually intention.
Jason Aten:I never thought about it this way. This design is intentional. Apple doesn't want you using the mouse while you're charging it. That's why it's like that and that's why it's not going to change because they just want you to plug it in for 5 minutes minutes and then use it. They don't want you to be it's a wireless mouse.
Jason Aten:You don't right? They don't make wired mouse mice anymore. So that that's the reason that it's gonna be that way. But the way you just the wireless one, though, would fit that. Right?
Jason Aten:The wireless charging because
Stephen Robles:you couldn't
Jason Aten:use the mouse while it's charging. So
Stephen Robles:And then this way, like, I wouldn't have to keep one lightning cable around for my Magic Mouse and my Magic Keyboard needs a 2, which Apple. USB C peripherals. Come on. Let's go. Yep.
Stephen Robles:You know? Also, Apple MagSafe Battery Pack, would still get I would get an updated version if it had USB C. Just throwing that out there. AirPods Max? I don't know if I'd buy one with USB C.
Stephen Robles:We'll see. So, alright, we're going to go to our bonus episode. I'm not sure I want to talk about the Light Phone, actually. And then, we might also touch on at what age do you give a kid a device? Because Jason and I both have multiple kids.
Stephen Robles:We've had to wrestle with this and then, our bonus listeners can weigh in once they hear it. But if you wanna hear that bonus episode and get access to all the past bonus episodes, you could support the show directly on Apple Podcast or go to primary tech dot f m and click bonus episodes there. Support us through Memberful. Join the community. You can cast your vote for the magic mouse and also leave comments on the episode post they go up or start a new discussion.
Stephen Robles:It's a great place there, and you can DM Jason and I or email the other guy. Primary tech. That's fine. And, don't forget to subscribe on YouTube a 5 star rating and review an Apple Podcasts. If you haven't yet, we appreciate you all for doing that.
Stephen Robles:Thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you next week.
Creators and Guests
