Apple Vision Pro Imminent, CES Preview, and Nostalgic Apple Stores
Welcome to Primary Technology. We cover the biggest tech news of the week and why it matters. On today's show, the Apple Vision Pro is imminent. We're gonna give a preview of CES. Microsoft put a Copilot button on on its keyboard plus launched its app.
Stephen Robles:And we're gonna get into some of our personal tech, including Apple's Infinite Loop store that's closing soon. This episode is brought to you by Audio Hijacked by Rogue Amoeba, one of my favorite apps. You'll hear about them in a moment. And joining me, as always, is my friend, Jason Aitin. How's it going, Jason?
Jason Aten:It's great, Steven, we are finally doing this for real for real.
Stephen Robles:We are finally doing it for real for real. This has been this has been very exciting. I've been teasing it on social media, and people have been slowly finding the show, because, you know, I wanted it published everywhere before we actually launched. Stuff takes a day or 2, and so people have been Sharing it, posting it, and so thank you for doing that. And I'll get into, I think towards the end of the show, talk a little bit about, like, like, meta talk about the podcast.
Stephen Robles:But I'll save it. I'll save it.
Jason Aten:Not Facebook.
Stephen Robles:No. No. No. No. No.
Stephen Robles:Sorry.
Jason Aten:We're gonna talk about Facebook. I think
Stephen Robles:it'll be a TV. Not not Facebook Meta. And, we're gonna have a bonus episode today as well, which you can get that by subscribing arriving directly in Apple Podcasts or at primarytech.fm. There'll be a button there where you can sign up for a special subscriber feed. We're talking about how we met and also naming the show, which which naming something is tough.
Stephen Robles:I don't know if you knew that, Jason. Naming something is tough.
Jason Aten:I mean, I have 4 kids. So, yes, I'm really familiar with
Stephen Robles:the topic of the same thing. There you go. Yes. Naming kids is tough. And then You think you get a unique name, and then once you name your kid that thing I don't know about you, but I just hear the kid's name then everywhere.
Stephen Robles:Like, everyone named their kid that. Did you experience that with any of your kids?
Jason Aten:Yeah. And, Yeah. Well and our biggest problem was we have 4 children. Yeah. Well, that's not the biggest problem.
Jason Aten:But once we got to the
Stephen Robles:I'm gonna put that as the teaser at the beginning of the episode.
Jason Aten:The 4 kids all have names that start with the letter m because the first 2, girls, both had names that started with m. So you can't, like, name your next kid something totally different because then it's like Mhmm. Why does his name different? Like, what is the problem here? So Once you get to 2, you have to stick with it.
Jason Aten:And so then by the 4th kid, we're like, what names that start with m do we still like? And that's your name.
Stephen Robles:So I I'll just call you Monsieur Eitan. Alright. Let's get into this. So we're gonna do some some quick news bits at the top of the show every week, and then we have a couple big topics, namely Apple Vision Pro and CES. Actually, I have already have follow-up from our 1st episode, and then we'll talk about our personal tech at the end.
Stephen Robles:So first up, humane. Every time I mention humane on on social media, it's it's hilarious because everyone's, like, This thing is gonna flap. But they now have a commercial, and I watched the commercial. It's on YouTube. And I'll put a link in the podcast show notes, of course.
Stephen Robles:And this this commercial is like all these, like, like, quote unquote, like, just normal people living their life also wearing the AI pin. And it's kind of hilarious because there's even, like, a there's, like, party on the rooftop of some building, and you see these, like, young people all talking and, like, they're all wearing an AI pin. I was, like, This future by Humane is quite unique. I I just wanna say he had getting one. Like, I have 1 on the way.
Stephen Robles:Supposedly, they launch in March, humane has said. They were, like, early next year when the preorder started, and now they're, like, man, March. I'm hoping this thing actually ships. I think it will. I have one coming.
Stephen Robles:You know, I'm extremely skeptical. Like your article said, we'll put a link to this ink article in the show notes. It basically is gonna do everything a phone and watch does, but just kind of worse, but it's new tech. And I'm excited about new tech to try it. Did you preorder 1?
Stephen Robles:Like, they didn't give any journalist any, like, pre or early access to this thing. But did you preorder 1 with the, like, Intention to write about it?
Jason Aten:No. I did not. And it was even weirder than what you said because they actually did invite some journalists to a briefing to talk about it or to their, like, launch event, but they didn't invite any reviewers. Like, the Joanna Stern wasn't there. Like, the people who would normally and in fact, there was a big thing where, like, Some people were invited and then, like, uninvited at the last minute.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. David Pearce, I think, from The Verge.
Jason Aten:He I think you're right. I think he, like, went and just waited and then was like, Oops. Sorry. You're out of luck. So but my the reason I wrote about it was simply because when you watch this commercial, which actually is not new.
Jason Aten:The fact I saw it on TV over the weekend, and that was new. But what was interesting to me is it's like it's basically telling you all the things you can do on any Google phone or any iPhone right now. It's just way more awkward because it's like this you have to keep touching your just to get it to do things. Right. And my the premise of my thing was like, you know what the perfect accessory for all of those things is?
Jason Aten:It already exists. It's a watch. Right? It's and it's an accessory to your phone. So I don't know.
Jason Aten:I think it's really novel and interesting. I just the commercial makes me feel like you aren't telling the story you think you are. So
Stephen Robles:The the 2 things I find somewhat compelling. And I think the story that Humane is trying to say is, you know, hold your phone less, be on your phone less. And there's a couple like trying to play music on a city street with an ink display. I don't see that happening. But, anyway, when the mom is, like, saying capture this moment, and she's looking at her baby, I think, taking her 1st steps.
Jason Aten:What we see?
Stephen Robles:Oh, capture this. Like, she doesn't have to have her face behind a phone. She can look with her eyeballs at her child, and then the pen is capturing it. How is framing and how good is that gonna be? Like, where you have it placed on your clothing, you know, if you wear the AI pin on your leg.
Stephen Robles:You know, how what kind of video is that gonna capture? I don't know. So, like, I understand the idea. Like, you can still look with your eyeballs and still capture the moment, but not be kind of engrossed in a device. And those young people like talking on a rooftop, They asked the pin for something, and it's like, you know, it would feel nice if you could all, like, look at each other in the face and still do something with a piece of tech that doesn't, like, disengage you from the people around you by pulling out your phone.
Stephen Robles:But I just I don't know.
Jason Aten:What is the cap capturing of that kid? And Right. If it's capturing Everything in the room, it's a pretty wide angle lens, which means it's probably a garbage photo, like, kinda like That's true. On them. I just thought the commercial was I'm like, I'm watching this in a basketball game, And I still don't think I want 1.
Stephen Robles:Well, I'm getting 1. I'm I'm taking the, taking the l for everybody. I bought 1, and, we'll see. I'm still the it still feel a little bit like that cooler on Kickstarter that never shipped. They had, like, a built in blender and everything.
Stephen Robles:We'll see if this This actually comes out.
Jason Aten:Yeah.
Stephen Robles:Also, Samsung is having their event later this month, Samsung S 20 4 unpacked events happening on January 17th. Did Did you say you were going to this thing? You're gonna be at this?
Jason Aten:Yeah. They they are doing an in person event, in in, I think, San Jose. So I'm I am planning on going. The reason is because they're they're sort of promoting it as, like, the 1st AI phone, which is funny because I feel like Google has used that before. You know, I think there are a lot of phone companies that would argue that there's a lot of AI, whatever that means, built into their phones already.
Jason Aten:But I think it I think it'll be interesting to see what Samsung's take on this is.
Stephen Robles:And we'll see the new s 20 4 phone lineup, which looks like it's gonna be very similar to the s 23. I I don't know if you watched the MKBHD's, like, smartphone awards, but he does think highly of the the Galaxy phones. I'm curious, like, I'm coming from a, basically, all Apple bubble Now trying to expand my coverage and ideas about technology to all these companies. And I know you're like an Apple guy kind of first. How do you approach, like this s 24.
Stephen Robles:Are you gonna get an s 24 and, like, write about it, or do you just kind of ignore things like this? Like, how do you decide what to cover?
Jason Aten:Yeah. I mean, I don't ignore them. I have covered I mean, I actually just thought Thought about this morning. I have a Fold sitting right here. And it's I mean, it's and that's fine.
Jason Aten:And the I've reviewed several of the Galaxy phones. The thing that's difficult for me is, yeah, the cameras are great. The software is Android, plus whatever Samsung does to it. They're they're They're good Android phones. Like, I have no problem recommending them to someone who says what I really want is an Android phone.
Jason Aten:The hard thing for me personally is That I don't really wanna give up using my iPhone iPhone for 3 weeks, which is what it really takes to review a phone. I'm just Right. The and the reason is it's funny because I I don't wanna mess up, like, all my messages, and I don't wanna mess up all that kind of stuff just to I mean, like, it would just be a pain. So I do have a second SIM that I use for this purpose. But, again, unless you make something your primary device, you're not you're not really reviewing it in the same way.
Jason Aten:So I do try really hard to like, that's why I have this here. I've I've Carry it around to try to do things with it, but I don't actually use it as a daily driver ever because it's just so It doesn't work with all of the things they have set up in the ecosystem.
Stephen Robles:What you're saying is because it doesn't have Imessages matter, because it doesn't have blue bubbles.
Jason Aten:That's actually probably true, to be honest. That's Yeah. That that might be the single biggest reason. I and I never really thought of it that way, but I can do I mean, I can put Spark on it. I mean, I have Spark on it, which is my email app.
Jason Aten:I can put you can put Pocket Cast. Right? Spotify. I can put all those things on there. I can pretty Slack.
Jason Aten:I can pretty closely mimic it. The only other apps that I can't get on it are, like, Ulysses, which is what I write in. Nice. But For the most part, I could get pretty close, but the messaging really would mess it up for me. But think about it this way.
Jason Aten:If I was thinking of switching to Android, that would be less of a Big deal to me. The reason is I don't wanna have a 3 week chunk where everything just got totally jacked.
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:And That's my reason.
Stephen Robles:You know, I've seen, Joshua Topolsky really hammering Apple and Imessage on threads and talking about how there have been people who We'll switch from iPhone to Android, but all the people that had them in their phone in the Imessage conversations, you You know, it's sometimes hard to tell, am I messaging their email address? Because that was, like, the default Imessage endpoint, or was it their phone number? And there'll be people who have switched from iPhone to Android saying we lost, like weeks months of messages. That is a legitimate issue. Like, I I I totally get that.
Stephen Robles:But I am also like you. Like, I have a Google Pixel, And I had thought about doing a video like, I use a Google Pixel for 3 weeks, and I'm like, no. You know, Imessage is 1, but also, Like, you're saying the apps. Like, Ulysses is a big one for you. For me, the calendar on Android, I still could not like.
Stephen Robles:Fantastical is so good on the iPhone, and I have it, like, just so nailed down with my calendar sets and my focus modes. I have not found a calendar equivalent on Android. And I think, like, things and reminders, like, all of those things that are part of the Apple ecosystem. And now, like, Icloud Keychain, I've been leaning more on that in the last few months than on 1 Password, and there's no equivalent on Android. You can get Windows well, you know, you can get the browser extension if you wanna use Chrome on Windows and Icloud Keychain.
Stephen Robles:You can even get Apple Music on Android. That app is there. I still kinda wish Apple Podcasts will come to Android for, like, the subscription side, but that that switching cost is getting harder and harder, You know, whether that's criticism or whatnot, but that I don't know. For me, it's getting harder, so I won't be using it.
Jason Aten:I will tell you. I wrote I I'm gonna save you some time. Don't make the Theo.
Stephen Robles:Okay. Good.
Jason Aten:I already wrote that article, and no one cared. I wrote about giving up my my iPhone and my MacBook for a Pixel, a Google Pixel, and some Some Windows computer that I had at the time that I was reviewing. Okay. And
Stephen Robles:yeah. Nobody cared.
Jason Aten:Nobody cared.
Stephen Robles:You know, I did experience that. I made a video on the Pixel 8 camera, and, like, that's lowest performing videos of last year. So I was like, okay. I guess this is not a thing. I well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna waste
Jason Aten:it. What I learned is that no one is interested in my experience of doing that because everyone Just sticking with what they have.
Stephen Robles:So that's good that's a good point. Alright. Couple other quick news. DHH, who is with HEY, they have submitted A new app to the App Store called Hey Calendar, Hey email app, which came out about two and a half years ago, and there was a big kerfuffle, if I could use that word, on the 30% app store cut because they were trying to they This is one of the people that'd be able to sign up in the app. And, of course, if people were going to pay in the app for the Hey email service, they're gonna take 30 Apple's gonna take 30%.
Stephen Robles:It was a big thing. I think that even went not this particular case went to court, but I think eventually there was the court case, the Epic v Apple, where Apple, at least, now has to allow you a link, or developers are at least allowed a link from their app out to their website for people to sign up, which is still not a great experience, but it helps developers not, you know, have to pay that the 30% and let people sign up outside the app. But now this Hey calendar app, a new app from Hey, has been rejected from the App Store and DHH David Hahnemeyer Hansen, which I interviewed on the Apple Insider podcast. And you inter who did you interview again? The other cofounder?
Jason Aten:I interviewed Jason Fried, the the other cofounder, for a piece, on ink. They had created a service. Right? Haith Existed as a service, and they wanted to give their customers the ability to access it on their iPhones. They were releasing it as an iPhone app.
Jason Aten:And Apple at the time said They you cannot submit this app without offering in app purchase because someone could theoretically download this app and not know what to do because they They don't already have a hair account, so you have to make it possible for them to create an account. Right. And they ended up getting around that by making that possible, But you still can't actually, like, pay for an account in there. You can just create, like, a free trial, essentially, but then you have to go to the website. I think that this is still true.
Jason Aten:And the hate calendar is actually just another layer of the same service. They're just offering it as a separate app. I don't know why they're offering it as a separate app. That Seems kinda strange to me, like, if you're having these 2 things combined. Yeah.
Jason Aten:It was it was a big deal then. To be clear, DHH doesn't Say why? Apple hasn't said why they rejected it. Right? Like, there isn't anything clear about why.
Jason Aten:They didn't say the reason we're rejecting this. It just Sort of lends more fuel to the complaint that Apple is not always transparent about this sort of thing. And then by the time you Find out what's going on. It's like, oh, yeah. We want some more money.
Stephen Robles:Right. So DHH is one to not be quiet about this, and so he will We'll be on social media, and you could probably follow the entire saga there. I know Casey Liss, who made the call sheet app, we talked about that in our 1st bonus episode as one of our favorite apps for 2023. He had talked about how the App Store rejected his app initially, which shows you, like, movie information, actors, and all that kind of stuff because of the images of movies, specifically Pixar movies that were showing up in the app. And there was some weird app store rule that you couldn't, like, display that for copyright or whatever, and he was like, but this is a movie app.
Stephen Robles:Like, I'm not using this image. You know, this is actually also coming from, I think, the movie database, that he's using to power his app. Yep. And that was one of those cases where I think he actually got on the phone with someone, eventually, after several weeks or several months. So we'll see how this actually shakes out, whether this is actually about the 30% cut.
Stephen Robles:But, you know, he DHS, he's gonna be out there talking about it.
Jason Aten:Yes. Which means we're gonna know. We're gonna know what's going on.
Stephen Robles:We will know what's going on. Alright. Last piece of news before we get to CES and VisionPRO, Microsoft Copilot, which the app came out for iPhone, I think last week. And I actually downloaded it because Microsoft Copilot is Microsoft's, like, AI tool, powered pod, chat g p t. And I was like, let me try this because I have the g p t app on my phone mainly to use the shortcuts action.
Stephen Robles:And sometimes that shortcuts action's a little buggy. So I was like, let me download Copilot, see how that is. And it's basically just another way to interact with ChatGPT. There's no shortcuts actions with the Copilot app for the iPhone, but you can use chat g p t four without having a GPT plus account if you wanted to try that. I think that's one of the major benefits of the app on the iPhone if you wanted to try it.
Stephen Robles:But now Microsoft is putting a Copilot key on its keyboard, which if you ever use the Windows PC, you know there's that Windows button, which I believe is the start menu, for, the like, that's the default behavior on a Windows PC. And now it's going to be the Copilot. Yeah. That's kind of a big change.
Jason Aten:You used to have 2 Windows buttons. Right. 1 on either side, and they a couple was it 5 years ago, they changed one of them to the office.
Stephen Robles:Oh, really?
Jason Aten:Which I've never even Whatever. Yeah. And I don't know what it does because I don't I try not to use a Windows computer. I mean, I I generally I review them sometimes, but, again, I have the same problem as Android. It's like, I can't even set up all the apps that I use, so it's it's sort of hard.
Jason Aten:But, I mean and that isn't to say there are some very good Windows computers. And, actually, Windows itself makes some very good computers, I should say that. But it is sort of interesting. They are so all in on this that they are, you know, literally replacing a button that's been there for, like, 30 years with It's a different button. Whether it does the same thing I mean, in spirit, it probably is meant to you know, if you push the Windows button before, it meant it was like Find a thing on my computer.
Jason Aten:Right? Like, it would bring up the start menu. You could search for things. You could do whatever. So now it's like you're just gonna type the same thing in natural language.
Jason Aten:So that Doesn't necessarily feel that weird. It's just you're making a physical change to a piece of hardware that always comes with pretty high stakes. Right. And in the article that you are are showing the that we well, link in here. It talks about how, like, Microsoft's partners, like OEM manufacturers, are planning to To add this button as well.
Jason Aten:So, like, it's a it's a pretty significant change. It's they're baking it in. Yeah. And you have to think, like, they're doing this. They're baking it in so, like, there's no going back.
Jason Aten:This is like a burn the ships moment for Microsoft. It's like we're we're gonna put this I mean, we're literally putting a button on the keyboard. You don't You you they only change that every 30 years or whatever. It's it's it's here to stay. So at least they think it is.
Stephen Robles:It's interesting too because I thought as we enter 2024, that AI, like in the conversation, would be less prevalent. You know, 2023 was everywhere. ChattGPT early in the year really kind of pushed that to the forefront of everybody's mind. And I felt like towards the end of the year, people were getting tired of it. You know, I tried doing several videos about AI and it was like nobody cared anymore.
Stephen Robles:But now it seems like the Galaxy Unpacked event is gonna be of the huge AI focus. Microsoft literally putting a copilot button on their keyboard. Feels like we might get another surge of this. And I'm also thinking WWDC from Apple's perspective really feels like they they need they'll need to do something. They've now Said AI, like the word, several times.
Stephen Robles:Johnny Suruchi said it at the m three event. And Tim Cook even said AI several times with his interview with Doja Cat. And he talked about how, like, the Apple keyboard is their AI, which I mean, let's I I get it. You know, I I understand where he's coming from. It's a
Jason Aten:little bit of a reach, but
Stephen Robles:A little bit of a reach. But I do think at WWDC this year, we need to see something in regards to Siri, which I feel like correct me if I'm wrong. The last couple of WWDCs, There's not really been a Siri focus. You know, I think early days of Siri, there were literally parts of the Dub Dub event where they would say, You know, new actions or hooks for developers to be able to plug in, like, things and other calendar apps, you know, would get more direct access. And it felt like after that kind of initial Few years of developers really getting their hands into be able to use certain parts of Siri.
Stephen Robles:We never got anything else. I remember I was waiting for years of, like, Can I ask maybe I should stop saying it because it's gonna keep triggering everybody's devices? So sorry, everybody. Like, will I be able to
Jason Aten:Everybody's podcast is already paused because
Stephen Robles:Yeah. Exactly. But I was I was waiting for the day when I was using Pocket Cast as my default listening app to be able to use the digital assistant on my iPhone to play a podcast in that app, which you can do again, like, you can do a task or to do in things, a third party app, because there's that literal Siri integration, the API. But they never like, they didn't keep opening it up to people. And now you can do I see a lot of TikToks and reels where people are, like, just talking to the ChatGPT app because the ChatGPT voice
Jason Aten:Right.
Stephen Robles:Tool is, like, really good. And there's even this 1 video. I'll try to find it, but there's this lady who's like she has this 1 minute question about she's basically asking about, like, currency exchanges, like why is the money in the US different than the money in other places? Why is it different numbers? She has this long question that any normal human would probably be like, what are you saying?
Stephen Robles:And Chad GPT, like, gets it, understands what she's asking. Chad Gbutee was like, it thinks, like, you're asking I think you're asking about currency exchanges. And there's lots of factors that go into them. It's like, wow. Okay.
Stephen Robles:The money is less valuable, but, like, It's more, and you're gonna have so much. Why is that? It sounds like you're curious about why some countries have higher numerical values for their currency compared to others. This did better than probably any other voice assistant, could on the market. And so it does feel like Apple needs to do something this year.
Stephen Robles:I don't know. How do you feel
Jason Aten:Well, I mean and I think the last time I really remember hearing much about Siri was when they built that big set for I think it was the HomePod minis maybe, and they just did a lot of the demos about Things you could just shot into the air and have it, you know, unlock your car or whatever. Like, just all these different things. That was the last time I really remember them spending Any amount of time. I don't remember if that was I think that was WWDC, but I honestly don't really remember. Mhmm.
Jason Aten:So it has been a while, and it's almost I feel like I have no information That they've sort of let it lay kinda low for a little bit because they did not have a direct like, especially this past year, because they did not have a direct answer to the, Are you building a large language model? Are you going to incorporate this into your your voice assistant? They didn't really wanna have to answer those questions yet, and And so they didn't say much of anything about it. Right? So I think that as they start to build that out and there are a lot of reports that Apple is working on that sort of thing.
Jason Aten:I think that there's a better chance that we'll hear more about it. And the fact that they did talk about it specifically in terms of the MacBook Pro, that it is a device designed to be able to do this sort of thing.
Stephen Robles:Mhmm.
Jason Aten:And by do this sort of thing, I mean, like, people who are developing these large language models can use these machines to do a lot of the tasks that they do. I have no idea what those are, but they told me that it was a good thing for that. So Right. If I ever get into that, I've got the right computer. But in the meantime, I'm just It's entertained by it all as you are.
Jason Aten:And I think that as Apple starts to build that out, if they release their own, if they have a big upgrade to Siri where it doesn't Stink anymore. Right? Then I think that we'll start to hear about it again. Because that's really what Apple does. If they don't have anything to say about it, they just don't say anything about it.
Jason Aten:They are not going to be, you know, persuaded by anyone else.
Stephen Robles:So I do think Apple is uniquely positioned to use an AI tool like this with their Iwork suite, obviously, in Final Cut, in Xcode for auto filling things for developers. Even just something simple as, let's say, you have a bullet point list in notes or pages. To select those, ask Apple's AI assistant to make some keynote slides based on that info, format it nicely, maybe even pull in some random imagery, like Apple's graded imagery. Like, we see it at every event or whatever. Like, just little, Tools like that
Jason Aten:Yep.
Stephen Robles:I think would raise the value of the Iwork suite, which I love all that. Like, I use Keynote and Pages, but I know most places, it's like it's all Microsoft. It's all Office.
Jason Aten:Right.
Stephen Robles:And so I think some of those other, benefits might make people wanna at Try it. You know, test it out, just like they did with, ChatGPT. But before we get to the other big topics, tell me, because I didn't realize this. You told me right before the show started that the New York Times is Suing Microsoft over this? What is this?
Jason Aten:They're suing OpenAI and Microsoft, actually. So the It's a pretty big deal, and it's it's basically a copyright infringement. And also and I actually read this, like, 69 pages long, 70 pages long, plus Hundreds of thousands of pages of exhibits because there's all these examples of where
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:They asked JB G to spit out a article on a topic, and it was Pretty close to what the New York Times would have Wow. Done. And so the New York Times, like, basically, just is claiming that not only is this copyright infringement because they don't have any permission to ingest all of their content. Right? The the New York Times has essentially made all of its content that it's ever produced Right.
Jason Aten:Right back, you know, a 100 and some years available in as an archive online.
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:And so that's all available to be ingested, and it was. And so they're talking about how it's their brand because if someone produces a article that sounds like the New York Times sort of but is making stuff up, then that's bad. Right? And it's also The it's really expensive to be The New York Times. Right?
Jason Aten:And journalism in general is really expensive, so there's sort of this, like, dilution. It will be interesting because I think it will It has the potential to answer some of the really most complicated questions, which is, is it okay for these large language models to just suck in all of the content that's ever been created for the purpose of training these models. Mhmm. I'm not a lawyer. I have no idea what the outcome is going to be, but it is definitely going to be interesting.
Jason Aten:I definitely spent a day reading this because It's a lawsuit, and I'm not a lawyer, so it takes me longer. But I'm I'm glad that I did because it's it's gonna be really interesting. So And
Stephen Robles:this is something Neil Patel on the verge has been talking about for probably the last 2 years. They're, like, lawsuits are coming. Like, this is what Yep. It means that people who make, like, original content, especially people like The New York Times and other, like, Journalists, news people, like, this is going to be an issue of, like, just AI generated content and all that. So it's hap it's happening.
Stephen Robles:Yep. As the GIF says, It's happening.
Jason Aten:It is happening.
Stephen Robles:So we got 2 big topics. Wanna talk about CES. I think both of us are on the fence of going. I think one of us might be going. Anyway, we'll we'll talk about that and also the VisionPRO, which is imminent.
Stephen Robles:But before we do, I'm so excited to tell you that even on this 1st Inaugural launch episode yeah. We already had that kinda other episode. But this is like the real like, the main first one. We have a sponsor, and this sponsor is one of my favorite companies and apps ever, which is Rogue Amoeba. And they make the applications Audio Hijack, Loopback, Farago, all of that.
Stephen Robles:Let me talk about Audio Hijack because Jason and I are literally using Audio Hijack, right now. Right now, as you listen to this, it is Audio Hijack recording it to our max. And how how long have you used Audio Hijack, Jason? Has it been been a minute?
Jason Aten:Probably when I first started to podcast, which I guess was so it's been, like, 2 or 3 years. So not as long as some people, but it definitely has been a game changer for me.
Stephen Robles:Been a game changer. I've been using it for years years. I literally use Audio Hijack every day. If I'm recording Audio for one of my videos on YouTube. I have Audio Hijack sitting in my menu bar, which is a great feature of Audio Hijack.
Stephen Robles:You can just have a little symbol In the menu bar, you can start running one of your sessions and you can set up multiple sessions. I have one for recording this podcast. I have a session for recording my video. And even if it's just going from a mic to a little meter, the meters can show up in the menu bar, and then I can record that to an uncompressed wave or m p three. Extremely powerful recording, and they've been adding a ton of new features as well.
Stephen Robles:You can live stream from Audio Hijack if you wanna send live audio to something like YouTube. They've even added a transcription feature, and Audio Hijack is really easy to build a chain of events. These little blocks, you drag them in, you connect the blocks, and you can actually transcribe audio with one of those blocks. You can add things like EQ and compressor, audio effects. It is an extremely powerful audio application.
Stephen Robles:So if you do Anything with audio, recording it, making videos. If you want to start a podcast, Audio Hijack is the app to get. And they also have great apps like Loopback. I actually use Audio Hijack in conjunction with Loopback for a couple scenarios. My brother-in-law has a complicated, like, video podcast set up with a Scarlett, like a 18 I twenty.
Stephen Robles:And in order to get all the audio to go to the right places, I actually use loopback, creating virtual audio devices where you can really control the chain of audio across your Mac. It is an incredible tool, highly recommend, and because they're our inaugural launch sponsor, Highly recommend you should just just go flood there, and you can't really, like, sell out of a digital product. But I guess you could just, like, just take out their servers just because everyone goes, downloads, Audio Hijacked to try it. And there's actually a special deal. I'm so excited because I get to read a custom URL with our name on the end.
Stephen Robles:Thanks, Paul. So here's what you do. Through the end of January, you have all this month. You can save $20 on Audio Hijack and any of the bundles from Rogue Amoeba. You go to the website mac audio.com/primarytech.
Stephen Robles:That's our URL, Mac Audio Mac Audio .com/primarytech, and use the promo code primary tech, all one word, to save $20 on Audio Hijack and any of their bundles. Mac audio.com/primarytech. Use the promo code primary tech, and you can save $20. That link and the promo code is also in the show notes. You could just click it there.
Stephen Robles:Our thanks to Rogue Amoeba and Audio Hijack for sponsoring this episode. Man, I'm excited. It's fun. That was really fun.
Jason Aten:I wanna say one thing about Audio Hijack that maybe because because some I think some people might have heard that and been like, that sounds a little complicated.
Stephen Robles:Oh, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure.
Jason Aten:Because and it does sound complicated because you can do a lot of things, but I just wanna give, like, a real world scenario. I had a conversation with someone who is teacher. Mhmm. And this teacher is it does still does, like, the virtual school. There are still students who do virtual school even post COVID.
Jason Aten:Like, that's a lot Districts have offered that, and they wanted to record the audio from their lessons and that kind of thing. And Zoom does such a terrible job of recording the audio that they started using audio hijack because, essentially, what it does is it lets you take any input source into your computer and essentially send it wherever you want. So, like, you can Have a microphone, and you can say, yes. Send that to Zoom because they need to hear me, but also send it to this file and then send it to a pair of headphones. And, like, it just gives you and it's very visual and lets you set up these blocks.
Jason Aten:And so Yes. Not saying anything negative towards this particular teacher person, but they aren't necessarily the most tech savvy. But they were able to figure it out Amazing. Because they were able to just, like, move blocks around, and it it just did it. So I just I wanted, like, people who are listening to this to know that, like, this is a great tool even if you're not a podcaster.
Stephen Robles:That is so good. Thank you for sharing that. Wonderful. Links in the podcast show notes. Thank you, Rogue Amoeba, an audio hijack.
Stephen Robles:Alright. CES is next week as we record. It's the big consumer electronics show. I have never been I have never been to CES. Tell me, Jason, how many, if ever, have you been to CES?
Jason Aten:I think I've been to 4 Oh my god. CESes. I've I think I've been to 4 of them.
Stephen Robles:So yeah. For CES's. Listen, I have, I was so I mean, as we record, and there's still a chance. I was, like, I've never been to CES. Now that I've been more on YouTube, there's been, like, a bunch of people kind of messaging me, like, hey, you're gonna be at CES?
Stephen Robles:Like, let's get together, like, content creators. And I'm, like, it wasn't gonna go. And then I'm, like, let me just see. Because you can register, with CES to be like a media where, I guess, you don't have to pay the registration fee. Is that accurate?
Stephen Robles:Like, you kinda go
Jason Aten:for free.
Stephen Robles:You just have to get there. And, so I I'll, like Yeah. Late, I think it was Monday night or whatever, I was, like, Let me see if they'll accept me as media, and they did. I'm, like, registered to go. I have no plane ticket.
Stephen Robles:No intention of going. That might change by the end of this podcast. But are are you going like, are you going this year? Have you decided?
Jason Aten:So here's the thing. I'm probably in the opposite, Like, situation as you. I'll explain in just a second. I do wanna say, CES, the interesting thing about it is you have to be an industry person. Right?
Jason Aten:They it's an you can't just as a consumer buy a ticket to CES. You have to be in I don't know all the ways that define industry people. People who work for big tech companies, big whatever companies, people who are, like, analysts, people who are buyers of different things, all that kind of stuff. So it is all it's like a very industry focused an event, but it is where a lot of the consumer technology comes from. Yes.
Jason Aten:As a media, though, that's one of the categories. But I don't I mean, I think people pay, like, 1,000 of dollars to go of this if they're a part of these different categories of people, and I would never pay pay that much money because it is a 170,000 people in Vegas, which is Just a little bit overwhelming. I mean, it's it's huge. It's it takes place at the Las Vegas Convention Center, which is massive, but it also takes place at, like, the Venetian and
Stephen Robles:Oh my
Jason Aten:The, you know, ARIA and all these different places and stuff. And so I am I've always like, I've gone several times including 2020 right before COVID. And Anyone who tells you that COVID came in March, I promise you it came to CBS. Like, it's gotta be how it I mean, there's a 170,000 people from all over the I came home and was sick for, like, 3 days, which is pretty typical after leaving Vegas, but that was especially bad. But, anyway, I so I have a ticket.
Jason Aten:I have tickets a plane ticket. I have a hotel, all that kind of stuff. But there is a part of me that's like, do I want to go again? Because I know how much it's it is definitely one of those things for someone in our industry that should Do it at least once. Right?
Jason Aten:But it's it is also one of those things where it's like, do I need to do it again? And for me, I do I I the the thing I measure is The time and investment and energy that it takes to go, is that worth what I'll be covering, and could I cover some of that stuff without going? And And so that's always the trade off. And in the past, I've had like, I've had some great, you know, opportunities to to connect with people. I've I've, You know, I've been at different sessions.
Jason Aten:I've covered different things. It it it is a good experience. I'm just like, you have no ticket except for your past and you're trying to decide to go. I have everything booked, and I'm trying to decide if I'm still gonna go.
Stephen Robles:Our follow-up next week, one of us might be podcasting from CES. From the team. I am Yeah. Yeah. We'll see.
Stephen Robles:I mean, I'm probably not gonna go this year. But I do wanna go because I remember I mean, I started following tech news, like, back when Joshua Topolsky, Nilay, and Paul Miller at Engadgets. Joanna Stern was theirs. I mean, this is like 2006, 7 time. And, CES was always such a fun event to follow from a distance because there did seem to be, like, major announcements.
Stephen Robles:Big tech companies were saying, you know, I think I think we saw phones at CES back then. Not Apple, but other companies.
Jason Aten:Right.
Stephen Robles:You know, CES is in recent years, It's felt a little less so. Although, because I do love, like, smart home and HomeKit stuff, we do see those kinds of devices at HomeKit. And, you know, in a moment, I'd love to hear, like, what you expect to see at CES. But honkin stuff, actually, if even I don't know I don't know how much of this I can say. I've actually had a couple briefings already.
Stephen Robles:You know, because and cut like, there were a lot of companies I guess, they they are very sensitive to the to the fact that a lot of Journalists and tech creators are not going to CES, but they're gonna make announcements there. Right. So they were like, hey, we can give you a video call briefing in the middle of December. Just don't talk about it until January something when we launch it. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:So I have have you had some of those? Are you allowed to say it? Not who.
Jason Aten:I mean, it's totally fine to say you've had, embargoed briefings as long as you don't say who they were.
Stephen Robles:Right? Who. Yeah.
Jason Aten:But I did check this morning because we had this on here. And so, you know, I I I practice inbox 0, not religiously, but by the end of the week, I want everything out of my inbox. Right? So in my inbox alone, so that's, like, since the beginning of this week. I checked this morning, and I have about 2 268 emails from people wanting to set up briefings.
Jason Aten:I will not do 268 Briefings? I might not even go, but I will say that that has been one of the most valuable reasons for going. Yeah. It's fun to watch the trade walk the trade show floor. That's the part that everyone should probably do at least once.
Jason Aten:You see all the big TVs. Like, that's the, like, the big The biggest booths that are there are, like, LG and Samsung and
Stephen Robles:They got, like, foldable TVs that curve and, like, fit in your pocket. I don't
Jason Aten:know if you want. TVs. They've got all these different things there. Yeah. And that's that's great.
Jason Aten:Like, it's very, very cool to see all that kind of stuff. After a while, it does sort of seem pretty much the same. For me, like, I look at the briefings, and I'm like, will I actually write about this. And even if it's cool, if I'm not gonna write about it, it's like we I'm not gonna waste your time.
Stephen Robles:Right. So So I'm I'm excited about 2 things. 1 is is smart home stuff, which this was announced publicly, but Utech, I believe, is the brand, actually announced a thread over Matter Lock, which would work with Apple Home and Home Key. And I recently did a bunch of home key lock comparisons on my YouTube channel. There's really 4, locks in the US that work with home key, which is not a huge selection.
Stephen Robles:So It was nice to see another one. And now that matter over home key or matter over thread is a thing for locks on Apple Home, maybe we'll see more of those and just other devices at CES. And the other big one is G2, which is the next wireless charging standard. G2 is based on MagSafe. And of all my videos last year, all of for some reason, MagSafe and wireless charging were, like, the biggest videos for some reason.
Stephen Robles:And, like, My video talking about why the why Apple killed the MagSafe battery pack and the MagSafe Duo was my highest viewed video last year. I I don't know. Like, I didn't expect that. I find it fascinating. But I do know that, we will see Chi two announcements at CES, and so I'm excited for that.
Stephen Robles:But, What do you expect to see? What are you excited about seeing?
Jason Aten:I already mentioned TVs. That's a big part. Like, that is the big thing that gets announced at CES. Right? There are not Not a lot of computers announced, not a lot of smartphones announced, not you know, that sort of thing is not nearly as because all those companies do their own events.
Jason Aten:Right? But TVs, There there's a lot there's like a a whole convention center full of televisions, and it is kinda cool. I like a nice TV. We have, like, the LG Sure. G one or something like that.
Jason Aten:It's just the nice OLED TV. Whatever. So I don't even know the name. I mean, we've already established I'm not good with names. I've I've I got my 4 children named, and that's it.
Stephen Robles:But, anyway Took it off after that.
Jason Aten:I can't remember other people's names. But there, you know, there is also often a lot of Cool car technology. Right? That's starting to become more of a thing, especially as it relates to electric vehicles, chargers. That kind of stuff is is pretty cool.
Jason Aten:And then there's a lot of media. You know, I was at the Quibi announcement. I I mentioned this to you, like, back in 2020, which I mean, talk about bad timing. They, like, Literally, announced a product that you would use when you're out on the go and have, like, 5 minutes, and then everyone had to stay home for a year. Like, they never had a chance.
Jason Aten:But, But, anyway I don't
Stephen Robles:think I don't think it would did did you try it? Did you try Quibi?
Jason Aten:Oh, yeah. They didn't have a chance. Anyway but talk about terrible timing. Like, they if they were going to have a chance.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. Not then.
Jason Aten:COVID was not it. Yeah. So I don't anyway I mean, it was a bad idea anyway, but it was a bad idea That was given a very bad set of circumstances to try to, you know it's like somebody it's like a baby it's like a baby bird with no wings got pushed out of the Nest to see if it could fly? Like
Stephen Robles:I I'm not here to defend Quibi by any means. But I will say the idea so if you didn't know, Quibi, it was a video streaming service with the intention of vertical video being the primary, like, medium, high quality vertical video, which is different. Like, vertical video today is like TikTok Reels and YouTube Shorts, which there are some highly produced ones, but it's more so, like, kind of just raw, like, maybe even low quality videos, and that's kind of the allure sometimes depending on the creator. But Quibi was gonna, like, make shows
Jason Aten:Mhmm.
Stephen Robles:That you could watch vertically, and it would make sense and look good. But you can also rotate your device, watch it normal widescreen, and it would also be formatted that way. So, like, if you were watching an interview, if If you're holding your device vertically, you could see 1 person in the interview. If you flip your device sideways, you can see, like, both people because it's widescreen. And, like, that idea that you could create 1 piece of content that could be consumed at any rotation and it actually look good, like it was like, on purpose, I I think it's an interesting idea, but it is obviously very difficult to execute.
Stephen Robles:And I think you probably need, like, creators and YouTubers to be able to do that, and that was not gonna be something accessible to them. Like, this was gonna be a streaming service. So I don't know. Yeah. Maybe it didn't have all.
Jason Aten:Well and just to be clear, like, not only Like, what you just described, which is absolutely true. But you could have the vertical be let's say it was you're making a horror show, like a 6 minute horror show. It could be like the POV version of it, like the person, Like, the protagonist version. But then when you flipped it widescreen, you would be looking 3rd person at like, so you could have completely independent, like, streams of content depending on which way, Which is definitely interesting. They spent a ton of money to acquire.
Jason Aten:Like, Steven Spielberg was attached to it, the show. Right? And this was Jeffrey Katzenberg who, like, made The little mer like, he was the head of Disney Studios and then Dreamworks, and and Meg Whitman was the CEO from, you know, I guess, eBay and HP are her two claims to fame. So, like, it was not for a lack of trying. But anyway Sure.
Jason Aten:So that's the other big thing that oftentimes we see at CES, our big media related Things. Right. Sometimes you'll see like like, last year, Delta Airlines had a big, push while they were there. So you see these big companies that'll show up when they have a thing that they want to get out in front of people, and that's that's cool. Do do I expect anything revolutionary to happen?
Jason Aten:No. I think that the biggest product Is that's gonna happen this year is what we'll talk about next, and that's not gonna be at CES. What is interesting at CES, I do expect to be true, is a lot of companies Try to get out whatever they think Apple's going to do before Apple does it, and they realize all the oxygen has been sucked out of the room. This is true because Apple doesn't Yeah. Announce things at CES.
Jason Aten:They did have, their head of privacy was there in 2020, sitting on a stage with the head of policy from Facebook, Facebook, which is a really interesting conversation, and they were talking about privacy. But that was the last time that Apple has sent somebody, I think, to actually present at CES.
Stephen Robles:I am curious if we're gonna see headset. I mean, obviously, the Meta Quest is like the big headset. It's already out. Yep. And so Yep.
Stephen Robles:I'd be cur like, any other company that's gonna make a headset, I imagine it's just gonna be for show, and they have to make, like, some kind of audacious hardware claim because they're not gonna have the ecosystem or whatever. But AI, headsets, You know, weird tech. I'm here for it. I wouldn't mind seeing it. But Yeah.
Stephen Robles:Well, you let you let me know you let me know if you go. When are you gonna decide? You're gonna decide, like, Sunday afternoon? Like, when are you gonna go?
Jason Aten:Yeah. My flight is supposed to leave Sunday afternoon, so I should decide before that. I probably will know for actually, I have decided I'm not Gonna go on Sunday. If I go, it will be a little bit later in the week. Okay.
Jason Aten:So but I probably will know by the end of by the time people listen to this, I probably will have decided for sure.
Stephen Robles:This is This is gonna be great follow-up.
Jason Aten:What I mean to say is by the time people listen to this, I probably will have canceled my ticket. Definitely a ticket.
Stephen Robles:And maybe maybe I'll have bought a ticket. I don't know. I don't I literally have My I I have the badge.
Jason Aten:Can I just sell mine to you? Does it work that way? Can I sell mine to you?
Stephen Robles:No. No. No. I don't know. You're flying Delta?
Stephen Robles:You're flying Delta?
Jason Aten:I am flying Delta. That's true.
Stephen Robles:Well, Anyway, I don't know. I'd I'm gonna I think I'm just gonna put the past in my Apple Wallet app to feel, like to have a little less FOMO, just feel like I'm part of CES. And I'll just watch all the coverage from my There you go. My home office and cover it that way.
Jason Aten:Yeah. I mean, if you follow, like, the live vlog from The Verge, you'll probably get most of the information.
Stephen Robles:See, that's that's the thing. That's the thing. Alright. The other big topic, of course, is Apple Vision Pro. And it seems like even Rumors and Mark Gurman, The seemingly omniscient Mark Gurman is saying that January 26th is a floating date that we might hear maybe an announcement.
Stephen Robles:Just on Apple Newsroom article, like notification on my Mac. I was like, Vision Pro? No. It's, Apple Fitness plus offers more ways to, to work out and meditations. Never mind.
Stephen Robles:Just wanna make sure I didn't, miss anything in that Apple Newsroom article. Okay. Mark Gurman is saying January 26th. So we could, as early as the end of this month, January 2024, at least have an announcement, maybe an event. I know I have heard rumblings that the retail staff is being trained, that certain retail staff are actually being, like, flown out to Cupertino to be trained on how to train other staff, and then they'll be, like, sent back to their regions and do things there.
Stephen Robles:I'm very excited. Do you think there's going to be, like an like a launch event. Like, is Apple gonna do a virtual event to talk more about VisionPRO? Is this gonna be, like, press release? How How do you think this is gonna go?
Jason Aten:You know, they already announced it, obviously, at WWDC, and they did briefing, hands not breaches, briefings, hand on hands on demonstrations About a half an hour long where you actually sat and got to use the use the VisionPRO. And I don't know how many people that was. I I think it was probably less than a1000. I'm I I really don't have a way of Aging app, but it was not everyone that was at WWDC had an opportunity. But then they started to do their developer things.
Jason Aten:I think it might have been you that I heard mentioned that, they were sending out emails to developers, like, get ready for VisionOS, and that that was a thing that usually happens just before They actually launch a product like get ready for Ios 17, and it's coming in a couple of weeks or something like that. So it does seem pretty obvious. I Can't remember where I said this, and I'm not trying to lay down like I told you so points. But I my guess was they would try to Coordinated somewhat closely to the 40th anniversary of the original Mac, which is January 24th. Right?
Jason Aten:And so the 26th would be pretty would be close Enough to say, like, you know, 40 years ago, we launched the most revolutionary personal computing device. And then we did the same thing, you know, however many years ago, and now we're doing it again kind of thing. I do think that there will be some kind of an event even if it's similar to the Mac Pro scary fast event where they do a prerecorded keynote thing. They Fly people to no. They don't fly people.
Jason Aten:They offer you can come. Fly yourself. Get here. Do this. I wanna be real clear about that.
Jason Aten:You can come. We will let you in the building if your name is on list, but get here. People will go to maybe New York or to Cupertino or maybe multiple places. I'm not really sure. And and do some kind of a thing.
Jason Aten:I think that they want the profile to be big enough
Stephen Robles:Yeah.
Jason Aten:Where it's it's sort of a a moment to because this is Like, they're betting a lot on this. This doesn't feel like Apple TV where it's a hobby, and if it doesn't work out
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:That's cool. I think I think Tim Cook is very in on spatial computing. That's the that I get.
Stephen Robles:I am like, this feels wild. Like, you know, when the Apple Watch was launched, It was clear that this is a new like a new product category for Apple. It wasn't a new product category in general. Like, there were smartwatches before that, but it did feel like this Apple Watch is now going to bring smartwatches and wearable devices to the masses. And this is now going to be an in like, it might it wasn't with the 1st generation Apple Watch, maybe even not the 2nd.
Stephen Robles:I think Series 3 is when it finally became a little more ubiquitous. You start things just like normal people wearing Apple Watches. Like, that was a clear moment to say, now smartwatches and wearables are a thing, and Apple makes the thing. You know, just like AirPods was kind of the, you know, wireless headphone revolution. Like, yes, there were Bluetooth headphones before.
Stephen Robles:Yep. They looked funny and didn't sound very good. But AirPods was like, now this is an industry, and now we have Pixel Buds and all this kind of stuff, Samsung, whatever. VisionPRO is obviously at Apple, is obviously positioning VisionPRO to be that for ARVR and spatial computing that this product, You know, there have been headsets before is going to now open the door to the masses, and this is going to be a thing. And I am extremely excited to try it.
Stephen Robles:You have actually tried it. So, you know, I'm curious how you feel this is going to go. But I I feel like this is going to be a harder sell than wearables, like the Apple Watch, a much harder sell than AirPods, not just because of the cost. You know, there will be cheaper versions of the of headsets, maybe Vision Air. Vision, you know, no name, no moniker, just Apple Vision.
Stephen Robles:I don't know. So there'll be cheaper headsets and it'll be more accessible in the future. But to say that this is now going to, like, 3 years from now change it where spatial computing is Ubiquitous or or at least more common? I'm very curious. I mean, you have tried this.
Stephen Robles:I I'm obviously gonna get one. I want to know what it's going to feel like. Will I work in VR? Like, yes, obviously, I'll probably watch movies there because it's gonna be the best looking thing, most immersive. Like, am I gonna spend hours in a headset with some windows around?
Stephen Robles:Like, I don't know. How do you feel about this?
Jason Aten:Well, first, I have a question. And and my question is, do you envision that at some point in your life, you will wear the Vision Pro and the humane AI pin at the same time. And if so, will you promise that you will never leave your house like that?
Stephen Robles:So in my mind, my video idea is to, like, go to a highly populated area in Tampa, like a food hall with the AI pin and just, like, talk to people about it. Like, that's my video idea, plus other ones that I'd make with it. I feel like vision like, Well, hey. No. I won't do I'm not gonna do that.
Stephen Robles:I mean, I'll do it just for you. I'll do it on this podcast. When I have both on this podcast, I'll wear the the headset, Wear the pin, and things will just be talking to me constantly. But no.
Jason Aten:Oh my goodness.
Stephen Robles:I don't know. How do how do I mean, you've tried it. So what do you think?
Jason Aten:Yeah. Oh, well, So when I think about the VisionPRO, the piece that I feel like is really interesting is if you look back, you talked about AirPods. I think the thing that Apple did that made those a completely Like, a thing people actually wanted was they were able to make them completely wireless
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:Right, in sync together.
Stephen Robles:Right?
Jason Aten:Right. That was not a thing that existed before the AirPods. That was the reason that it's like, oh, because they were wireless Bluetooth headphones and Earbuds, but they all had, like, a wire between them, for example, or that kind of thing. So the AirPods were really the first example of these are Bluetooth Bluetooth. They're completely independent.
Jason Aten:You can just use one of them. And when that one dies, you can switch and put the other one in. Like, they that was what changed it. The same thing if you think about, like, the iPhone. The thing that made the iPhone A device people would use was the multitouch display because touch displays sucked before that.
Jason Aten:And so there would be no iPhone without, like, that sort of a thing. So So when you look at the VisionPRO, I think that the piece that Apple has done, no one has done before. The gestures, I guess, is a pretty important piece of it. Like, they're very intuitive. Right.
Jason Aten:You just look with your eye, and whatever you're looking at with your eye, it selects, and then you just pinch with your fingers to, like, actually select that thing.
Stephen Robles:Yeah.
Jason Aten:So That's a that's a piece no one else has gotten right. Meta does not do that like that. Right? And even the new quest Does not have the same quality of displays. Right.
Jason Aten:Right? Apple is willing to put a display in front of you, and they've mastered sort of the pass through video. Right. So I I just wanted to say that's the piece that makes the Apple Vision Pro, I think, different than other headsets in the way that the, AirPods We're different than other Bluetooth, the way the phone is different than other smartphones before that. So that that I think that's an important thing to understand and using it.
Jason Aten:So, yeah, I was at WWDC had a chance to use it. I could envision sitting here in my office and using it to do certain work, especially certain collaborative things. I don't think I would just sit here and write. Right. That would be Strange and a little bit overkill.
Jason Aten:Right? But I
Stephen Robles:You could be riding like in the mountains, though, sitting at a lake.
Jason Aten:I could. Actually, you know what? That's not a terrible idea because Sometimes when you have to be creative, you just wanna get away. So I I'm not discounting that piece of it. But I think, like, for research, for for certain types of work, One of the pieces that didn't feel fully fleshed out at the time was sort of the FaceTime call type piece where you where you look like The digital version of yourself.
Jason Aten:Yeah. Yeah. Sort of and you're sort of, like, floating in the air kind of a thing, but you're in a space together. It's not quite like horizons, work rooms, that kind of thing. Excuse me.
Jason Aten:But I could definitely see that because I hate Zoom calls. I hate that sort of thing, and I could see it as being a better way of doing that. But I do think at least in the nearest term, entertainment will be the killer Especially if they can deliver on some of the things that they are sort of promising, like their partnerships with Disney and ESPN, that sort of thing. Like, being able to experience Maybe the Star Wars area at the Magic Kingdom without actually going to like, those types of things I feel like people Would be willing to justify something that is expensive, and they're more conducive to doing them when you're by yourself as opposed to, Like, you know what? No one wants to sit in a cubicle in a room with 300 other people wearing VisionPRO.
Jason Aten:That feels very dystopian.
Stephen Robles:It feels dystopian. I will say, my my brother-in-law Ma and his wife were in town over the holidays. And, he produces music. And, like, so he works in Logic and Pro Tools doing that. Like, this is, again, how much of a bubble sometimes it is.
Stephen Robles:They had not heard of Vision Pro yet. They didn't know Apple was making a headset, which I find fascinating, like, Just fascinating. But I was explaining to him, like, basically, this kind of workflow. And right now, if you go watch youtube.com/atprimarytechshow, Showing visuals the entire time.
Jason Aten:Yeah.
Stephen Robles:This is like the moment when there's a guy working at a desk, and he's got 3 windows open, kind of large. And he can look on all around and use a keyboard and mouse like you would controlling his Mac. And I was telling him, like, you can make these windows as big as you want. And for, like, a music producer, One of the challenges is you want the biggest display possible so you can see as many tracks as possible. If you're editing, you know, producing music or whatever, you're gonna you might have hundreds of tracks, orchestras.
Stephen Robles:You know, you might have tons of instruments, and you're always gonna be limited, or previously, by the physical monitor that you're running Logic Pro 10 on or Pro Tools or whatever. And so now, like, you can literally make that as big as you want. Like, make it 10 feet tall and see, you know, a 100 tracks all at once, I assume. I don't know if you could speak from your experience with it. Like, I assume once you size a window in the Apple Vision Pro, like, in augmented reality, that if you, like, step forward to it, it gets bigger.
Stephen Robles:Is is that a or does the window, like, move with you? Do you remember if that how that works?
Jason Aten:No. It's It's like it has object permanence in their virtual space. So, yeah, that would be true. Like, if you had put up a you know, what we're looking at now, If you are watching the video, if it's someone standing at a table. But if that table wasn't there and that person decided to walk forward, it would Be as though you're in the example was we there was a part of the demo where they had the the wall we were sitting in a room, and the wall at the other end of the room opened up, and a dinosaur right into the room, and it which was very visceral.
Jason Aten:Let me tell you. And then they're like, get up and go see the dinosaur, and I'm like, I'm good. But I did. Right. And it was as if I was getting closer to it.
Jason Aten:It wasn't like it moved away from me.
Stephen Robles:So I mean, I could see, you know, like a music producer just have a, You know, a massive window with hundreds of tracks with none like, you don't need a desk or or chair or maybe just have a chair that you can, like, throw back dramatically week and then walk up to this, you know, huge window of Logic Pro 10 and, like, inspect the tracks closely, like, which would normally be, like, a command plus. Maybe you wanna zoom in on the timeline or whatever. I'm sure there will be people that would like to just physically, like, go to the track that I wanna edit. Like, walk to it. Yeah.
Stephen Robles:You know, swipe up to it, and then, you know, see it as big as you want. Like, like, hold your face right up against the, quote unquote, digital window, and make the edits. Like, maybe that's compelling. You know, I for some, you know, there's of course, there's like the Mechanical repair type use cases where, like, maybe repair people, whether it's aviation or cars, like, you could wear this. And there would be apps where augmented reality could show you, like, unscrew this first.
Stephen Robles:And it gives you that step by step or, like Yep. IKEA furniture. Build IKEA furniture with Apple Vision Pro, and you can literally like, it will point to where you put the little wooden dowel in the hole. You don't have to wonder Yep. If this is right.
Stephen Robles:Like, some of those just, like, normal use cases that we had paper manuals for or whatever, It might it might change that. So I don't know. I'm excited.
Jason Aten:Yeah. I'm excited about it. I I think it'll be very interesting to see how people use it, but I do think that I I think because they have done the technology so well that as long as the software is available for whatever use case you care the most about, like, you're gonna wanna try this. I think that people are going to is it worth $35100? That's really tough to say because that is a lot of money, like, a lot of real money for a lot of people.
Jason Aten:But I think that, like, as
Stephen Robles:the golden Apple Watch worth $10,000?
Jason Aten:No. But most people didn't. Although, that just became obsolete. They won't even repair it anymore.
Stephen Robles:Truth. Like,
Jason Aten:that happened last year. That was sad for people. Yeah. Anyway, it was always sad for some people who were so rich that they don't even
Stephen Robles:know what that
Jason Aten:Apple Watch is anymore. They weren't wearing it. Anyway
Stephen Robles:Do, My my last question on VisionPRO, since the 17.2 update, if you have a 15 Pro or Pro Max, you can capture spatial video right now to view in the VisionPRO when it comes out. Have you been capturing spatial video?
Jason Aten:So I did some on Christmas morning.
Stephen Robles:Same.
Jason Aten:I thought I it was like, oh, I should. And, actually, you helped me because I had no idea how to make it I'm like, I opened the can. Listen. I'm a tech columnist. I'm a pretty smart person, but I'm also very impatient.
Stephen Robles:Mhmm.
Jason Aten:So I don't always have the patience to dig and figure out where something would be. So I usually just, Like, search for it or check Steven's Twitter, you know, Doug's account because he's usually come up with a come up with a tip for it. And And I'm like, how do I even do this? And I'm, I have to turn it on. And once I turn it on, it just, you know, gives you that option.
Jason Aten:So I did. On Christmas morning, I recorded some of that because I was trying to think, like, Is there a thing that's happening in my life right now I'll care about enough later to watch back in special video? And Christmas morning seemed like it would be that moment. I wish I would have thought about it. Actually, It wasn't out during when we were in Florida for Thanksgiving, so I I wouldn't have been able to do it then anyway.
Jason Aten:So
Stephen Robles:I did the exact same thing. My kids were opening some gifts. I captured some spatial video, like, a minute or 2. And I'm just very curious how that's gonna feel in the headset. And I'm curious if there's gonna be, like, a wave of, like, man, I wish I've had for years because I would have loved to experience other memories in this kind of VR space.
Stephen Robles:Or if it's gonna be like, this is, like those weird, I don't know if you remember. HTC made, like, 3 d phones where you could capture 3 d video and then actually display it on the phone. But it was, like, the worst three d ever, which I doubt no. This will not be like that. But, you know, I'm just curious what that visceral reaction is gonna be.
Stephen Robles:Like, how like, do I feel like I was there again? Like, do I feel like I'm literally living this memory again like a dream, or will it be I don't know. I'm I'm I'm curious to see.
Jason Aten:That was a part of the demo. Right. Right? They did a couple of those. The one thing I think that people might I don't know if people think of it this way or not, but imagine you'd open your photos app.
Jason Aten:Right? And you click on the video. I mean, it's a spatial video. So it is Still confined to, like, a window. Right?
Jason Aten:It is not like a panoramic surround. It's not like it's not like you're standing in the middle of that. Can't, like, navigate around your spatial video, but you are watching something that has depth. And it was a little hard to tell because the ones that we were watching were obviously Not things we cared about. You know?
Jason Aten:And some people are on a campfire, that kind of thing. It was, like, I think, maybe was it Alicia Keys in a music studio maybe was one of them? I I I know it was in a music studio. I think it was Alicia Keys, and and it was like you were there. Sure.
Jason Aten:It it was it was like and it was it was sort of like, Wow. I mean, I'm not emotionally gripped by this because I don't know who these kids are at the campfire. You know, there was the birthday party scene was the other one. Yeah. But I could imagine, like, if that was my like, that's That's pretty amazing.
Jason Aten:So
Stephen Robles:Well, I'm excited. We'll see. We'll, obviously, talk about it here on the show if they have an event or anything. And, you know, Jason gets invited to these things. So Maybe by proxy, I will too one day, but at least you get to go.
Stephen Robles:You get to experience these.
Jason Aten:We're working on it. I'm working on it.
Stephen Robles:We're working on it. One quick follow-up and then a little personal tech. In the our our 1st episode, like our preview episode, we were talking about can you use an iPad as a home hub if you wanted to use Apple HomeKit. And so did the digging, and here's the Apple support article. I'll put it, in the show notes, but you can ish.
Stephen Robles:So there was that HomeKit architecture upgrade with Ios 16, I believe. I think it was a dot update. And you can update the architecture of your home to be more reliable or whatever. If you did that and your smart home is now on that new architecture, which I imagine If you're starting from scratch today, it would be on that new architecture. You cannot use an iPad as a home hub.
Stephen Robles:You could if you are on the older version of HomeKit that did not use that new architecture. So That's the caveat. I think, basically, going forward, Apple does not want you to do this, and so it will not be supported as a whole hub with that new, more reliable architecture. So not anymore, seems to be the answer.
Jason Aten:Okay. So quick question. How do I know if I'm on the new? Because none of the stuff in my house is reliable.
Stephen Robles:Just to be clear. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Well, that's a good question.
Jason Aten:It says seven Seven accessories, no response.
Stephen Robles:Oh, let me see what mine
Jason Aten:is. Tells me.
Stephen Robles:I'm only 2 accessories, no response, and one, I have to change the battery. So I'm doing pretty well right now. But I really have no idea. I think if you go to the home settings and you go to the software update, If you don't see the architecture update there, probably means you're on the new architecture.
Jason Aten:Okay.
Stephen Robles:If you see the updates, that's where it would prompt you to do it. But there's no, like, obvious Got
Jason Aten:it.
Stephen Robles:New in red letters or whatever. Like, it's not that. Right.
Jason Aten:Gotcha. Yeah. Well, no. In in the one of the one of the devices that never respond we don't have to talk about this for very long, but I will have questions someday. Is the Is the I want to say what brand because I don't wanna throw them under the bus, but the front door lock that we have, which I love, but it never responds to HomeKit.
Stephen Robles:Oh, that's not good. That's not good.
Jason Aten:Seems problematic, though. Like, it's how you get in the front door. It doesn't matter. It doesn't work.
Stephen Robles:You know, I have a video actually, reviewing the for home kill anyway. You know, that's something.
Jason Aten:Alright. I'll watch it. I promise.
Stephen Robles:No. We can talk about it in a future one too. Follow-up. We will we we're both smart home people, so we will have smart home content in the future, for sure.
Jason Aten:Absolutely.
Stephen Robles:Let's round out the show with, some news, but also bring it back to a personal, aspect. The Apple Store Infinite Loop or is the Apple Infinite Loop store
Jason Aten:Yep.
Stephen Robles:Is actually closing on January 20th. It has been around for a long time. It was Apple's initial headquarters, One Infinite Loop. It's where Jim Dalrymple, you know, his fame his publication called The Loop was based on this name. And, it's closing.
Stephen Robles:I guess it's been an Apple store recently. I have not ever had a chance to go here. Have you been to this store.
Jason Aten:Yeah. I have. I've I've not only have I been there
Stephen Robles:Oh.
Jason Aten:But I have merch from
Stephen Robles:them. My goodness.
Jason Aten:I oh, so here's the thing. I have to be clear. I've been to both this one, and I've been to the, Apple Park Visitor Center, which
Stephen Robles:double brag.
Jason Aten:Sounds like it's a visitor center, but it's but it's actually an Apple store
Stephen Robles:Right.
Jason Aten:At Apple Park. And those are the only 2 stores where you can buy merch. Right? So I have my I have a I have an Apple Pat.
Stephen Robles:We even brought it
Jason Aten:thing.
Stephen Robles:We brought it to the podcast to show off. What else do you have?
Jason Aten:Just because this one obviously did not come from Infinite Loop, but this is obviously Park, a T shirt, and then I've got a couple of these pens.
Stephen Robles:Oh my
Jason Aten:So, anyway, I have been there. You're hippie. Yeah. It's in I'm so sorry. Well, go now before they close.
Jason Aten:We've got 6 to 10 more days before they shut that one up.
Stephen Robles:2 weeks.
Jason Aten:That yep. But it it is so, I mean, the cool thing about it, it it is It when you walk in, it's an Apple Store. Right. Like, just to be clear. But it used to be the company store, so it used to be like the employee store.
Jason Aten:And And it's funny. I don't know if you've ever seen old pictures of it, but, I mean, it looked like a CompUSA kind of a I mean, it was, like, rows of software and device, you know, and sweatshirts. It looked Like a cross between, like, small CompUSA and, like, a college swag store. Like, you know, the bookstore kind of a thing. And so That was and then I think it was, what, 2015 ish, maybe?
Jason Aten:They converted it to an Apple Store. And then it In in then in 2017 is when they opened, I think, the Apple Park store, and it it it's kind of, like, I think, taken maybe a back seat to it at that point Because, obviously, if you're going to go to Cupertino because you care about Apple, you're probably gonna go to the spaceship not Right. To infinite loop. But It's nostalgic. It it is it is a cool thing.
Jason Aten:It is very cool. It is one of the 2 places you can get swag. Mhmm. And to be clear, the swag is different at the 2 stores. Oh.
Jason Aten:Right? So if you wanna have a chance to buy all the swag, you have to go to Both. Now maybe they will take stuff from the store and put it up at the visitor center now because this will be closed. But, yeah, it is pretty cool. I mean, it is kinda bittersweet that it's closing down.
Stephen Robles:So So what you're saying is I need to go to CES, and then at the end of CES, hop on a little flight over to Cupertino. I've never been to Cupertino. I've never been to San Francisco. That's a place I need to go. My goal is this year if you're listening, Apple, this year to go to some to have a reason to go to Apple Park.
Stephen Robles:Yeah. They'll probably talk about it if they have, like, a VisionPRO thing to say end of an era. Big I don't know. Maybe not.
Jason Aten:They might. They they might because they do sometimes talk about stores and stuff. This is actually one of 2 stores that is closing down this month. The other one is in Honolulu, which I did realize I've actually been to that one as well. I don't know.
Jason Aten:I mean, it's not. That one's not nearly as nostalgic, but it is there are 2 that are closing. This one, though, is the one that I think people I don't know if they should know about it, but it is It is the end of an era. I that's kind of a cliche, but it's it's a big deal because this was the there was a point in time when this was literally the Only Apple merch store, official store.
Stephen Robles:I do think it's ironic that there's no Genius Bar appointments available at 1. Yeah. You have a Genius appointment there. But
Jason Aten:I don't even know if they have a they may not even have a Genius Bar in there, to be honest.
Stephen Robles:I'm not sure. There's not even so here's what we talk about, the personal tech. Back in my day, back in my day, Apple Store, there was the literal, like, genius bar, and they would have the words Yeah. On the wall. And And if you made an appointment, you would walk up to a bar.
Stephen Robles:It was like a wooden at least in the ones I went to, it's like a bar, and that's where you go to get your support. And now if you can make a Genius Bar appointment, You know, they check you in, and they're like, yeah. Sit over there. You know, sit at a random table or go Yep.
Jason Aten:Go stand against the back
Stephen Robles:wall. The back wall. I was like, Okay. I wish I knew there was a place to go, which I just recently heard John Saracusa talk about how he wishes there were still checkout lines at the Apple Store, which there used to be. Again, like, I remember.
Stephen Robles:And so, okay. Yeah. You had, I think, an excellent, topic in here to talk about Apple Stores, like our experience in Apple Stores
Jason Aten:Yep.
Stephen Robles:And all that. And so I'll just say my my very first experience, I grew up in upstate New York, and I didn't go to the city very often. I was in Fishkill, if you were curious. That was where the town I grew up in. And the nearest Apple store was actually in Connecticut.
Stephen Robles:It was the Danbury Mall Apple Store. And that was like the mall that when we were in high school, we would go to that was like you know, it was just fun. It was a big mall. It had an Apple Store. And I remember the 1st time going into that, it just it blew my mind.
Stephen Robles:Like, it was just this amazing experience. And then I spent, the next summers during college still in New York, actually interning in the city, and I became completely spoiled by Apple Stores. Mhmm. I would literally as when I interned at my job, it was an insurance company over the summer, I would take my the subway at lunch at an hour and I timed it perfectly. I could get down to the subway, get to the Apple Store on Prince Street in SoHo, which was An amazing story.
Stephen Robles:It was 2 stories. Two story Apple store. The upper story had a theater. It literally had, like, 5 or 6 rows of theater seating with a huge screen. Yep.
Stephen Robles:And, I think they've remodeled it, since, but it was just an incredible Apple store. I loved going there just to look around, just to walk around. The very 1st Apple product I ever bought was in that store and it was an Ipod video. That was my first ever Apple product. And then, later that summer, I bought a g four 12 inch, PowerBook.
Stephen Robles:That was my second I would probably But then being in New York around that time and in the years subsequent, I was spoiled by, like, 5th Avenue Apple Store opened, the the cube, and so I definitely visited that. That's awesome, just architecturally or whatever. The Grand Central Station Apple Store, which is just a wild experience, also beautiful, Has the amazing architecture of Grand Central Station or whatever. Like, those were, like, my Apple Stores kind of as I came into the Apple world, and they were all wonderful. And now, I go to, the brand in Florida Apple Store, which is like, whenever I post pictures of it, people are like, That thing is tiny.
Stephen Robles:Where are you? Like, what Apple Store is this? It is literally one of the smallest Apple Stores. It's, like, been around for a while. It's not updated, and it kinda stinks that that's my local Apple Store.
Stephen Robles:But, you know, that's what it is. But, anyway but but the ones I grew up in in New York were
Jason Aten:I so the I think the very first Apple store I ever went to was the one at Fashion Valley Mall in San Diego because I live in Michigan and not New York when we don't we didn't I I don't even know when the 1st Apple store in Michigan opened. The first one I remember being able to go to is the one in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and it was probably similar to what you're talking It was very small. It's still small, but it was, like, one of the if if you think of them in terms of, like, the smallest unit, right, which is basically Two tables down the middle and then the the the things along the edge, that's, I think, the smallest you're gonna
Stephen Robles:and that's the brand in Florida.
Jason Aten:Now I so now I think it's twice that size, which is Still fairly small, but it it's it it has expanded since then. That was the first one. And I so and the Fashion Valley one is probably pretty similar. I don't actually have any recollection for going in there and being like, this is amazing. Right?
Jason Aten:Like, it was just such a cool thing to me to be able to go there for the 1st time, and this was, like, sometime in the early 2000. I don't exactly remember when. But the I would say the my favorite period of time for the
Stephen Robles:That's That's the Apple Vision. But just by the way, real quick, so this is the Fashion Valley Apple Store. Here's the picture if you're watching.
Jason Aten:It did it probably didn't look at like that 20 years ago. You know, whatever. But, yes, that is it now. And that's that's that's so even that, that's what I would call, like, the twice the size, and it it's a lot. So that's probably 2 to 3 times bigger than the original Grand Rapids one that I used to go to.
Stephen Robles:So Right. And this I just wanna show this one.
Jason Aten:But I do
Stephen Robles:This is the, the Soho Apple Store. I I guess it was it used to be United States Post Office, but this is the store. And you can kinda see through the window, that glass staircase going up to the 2nd floor, and it was just wonderful. I love that App Store.
Jason Aten:Yeah. So I think that the golden age of Apple Stores was probably pre Angela Ahrens. Not They're saying anything bad about her, but they when they started to make some changes in remodeling them because you used to have, like, the Chicago, Michigan Avenue store, which was similar to what you described, where it had the Theater upstairs, and it felt like a theater. Right? Like, it actually felt like you were in a theater because they had, you know, chairs that kinda and, you know, seating, and then the The floor went down, and then there's a person standing in front of a big screen.
Jason Aten:The San Francisco store was just like that as well, the flagship store. The news San Francisco store is great. The new Michigan Avenue Chicago store is great. It's right down on the river. The problem is now, like, the theater is just like a bunch of wooden boxes, like, On the floor that you can, like, sort of come and sit on, and there's, like, a screen and stuff.
Jason Aten:It just doesn't have the same kind of feel. And I'm sure that someone at Apple feels like they're way better, but I do think that we we may be post golden era Apple Store, except you described the the Soho store as being you know, it was an old post office. Apple has done that. Like, the Tower, Theater in Los Angeles is another example of where they renovated something very cool. I've been to the, Passe de Gracia, which is the store in Barcelona, which is another one that they, you know, kinda took over a building that already existed and renovated it.
Jason Aten:And I do think that, like, those are so cool that they will restore these buildings, and they will give new life to them. And they Obviously, it looks very much like an Apple Store, but it also still very much maintains the character of those original buildings. So with the exception of those It's flagships. I do think that I have a lot of nostalgia for some of the older styles of some of the stores. So
Stephen Robles:This is the the the tower Theater 1. They respect the architecture, you know, just like the Grand Central Station.
Jason Aten:Absolutely.
Stephen Robles:They just respect what the building is, and they kinda build around and into it. And it looks beautiful. Like, any, I don't know, any other brand I feel like would probably ruin it, let's be honest, which are there still Microsoft stores? Do they still do that or not anymore?
Jason Aten:No. They closed the last ones. They did. Okay. Closed a little while ago.
Jason Aten:That was, yeah. You tried to copy this thing, but no. No. Nobody But
Stephen Robles:no. That's our Apple Store nostalgia. That was pretty fun because that's our personal take at the end. So we're gonna go into some, quick bonus episode in which we're gonna talk about how we met and naming the show, which was a challenge. But before we go, I wanna let you know to get access to those bonus episodes, you can support us directly in Apple Podcasts.
Stephen Robles:That subscription is live. Plus, you can get an ad free version of the show as well if you would like. $5 a month, $50 a year in Apple Podcasts. And through Memberful, you can go to primary tech dot f m and do it that way if you wanna get that, RSS feed there. And I just wanna say, I believe in podcasting, which I meant that to be like a Godfather reference, where they say, I believe in America at the beginning.
Stephen Robles:But, like, if you Okay.
Jason Aten:But wait. Do you know what the next sentence of that reference is?
Stephen Robles:I don't. What What is the next sentence?
Jason Aten:The next sentence of that reference? Which makes it even funnier because you were just talking about supporting this podcast. Because the reference is I believe in America, And I do believe that the next sentence is something like it's in America that I made my fortune or something like that. So, like, the reference, I believe in podcasting. Podcasting is where I made my fortune.
Jason Aten:I butchered the exact quote, but that's basically what it is.
Stephen Robles:That's hilarious. Well, I do not expect a fortune. But I will say, like, when you look at the the landscape of podcasts, many are, like, based of a on a network or come from, like, another a publication. And this is like we are complete like, it's me and Jason here. There's no one else.
Stephen Robles:Like, we are doing it.
Jason Aten:This is Journalism is all you get.
Stephen Robles:Not even work there's no, like not even working with an ad agency yet. Like, we worked with, our, Audio Hijack directly. And so supporting the show would be a huge deal. If you listen to the ATP podcast, you know, they talk about this a lot. But going into the future, you know, I think advertising and podcasting will still be around.
Stephen Robles:But Direct support from people who love and watch and listen to the show is gonna be a big deal, and so we would love your support. We would really appreciate it. We have bonus episodes now as part of that and, of course, ad free versions of the show. Maybe there'll be more more benefits in the future. We'll See what people want or what people ask for.
Stephen Robles:But yeah. That's, so support the show. Those links will be down in the podcast show notes, and we really appreciate it. And, of course, 5 star rating. If you've not, this is a new show.
Stephen Robles:So any 5 star ratings you can give would be greatly appreciated, both in Apple Podcasts and in Spotify. You can do five stars and reviews, and, we really appreciate it. Excited to do this no show. Just wanna say thank you, Jason, for, for doing this with me. It's a lot of fun.
Jason Aten:Hey. Listen. I appreciate it. I feel a lot of pressure because I've said many times that Steven is the most podcasting person I know. And so doing a podcast on a regular basis with Steven, there's a lot of pressure here.
Jason Aten:I was super excited that I, like, felt like I was super productive and did a little bit of research ahead of time because I was just like, One of these days, Steven's gonna just feel like, hey. I gotta cut the dead weight, man.
Stephen Robles:No, man. No. And we'll talk about this in the bonus episode in a second, but There's a lot of fun. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching youtube.com/atprimarytechshow.
Stephen Robles:You can watch the show there. We'll publish video version there and audio. And thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. Every Thursday, we'll have a new episode out.
Stephen Robles:And thanks again. This has been Primary technology.
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