Primary Technology

The things you own end up owning you.

Welcome to Primary Technology,

the show about the tech news that matters.

We're going to talk all about Apple's new
upgrade leasing program.

Is it worth it to lease a Mac,

iPad, iPhone, or other things?

Plus, Jason had some interesting Siri AI
experiences on the road.

A bunch of AI news. Sam Altman's out here
saying we reached the singularity.

Every streaming app now has vertical
videos like shorts and a ton more.

This episode is brought to you by Copilot
Money,

Decagon, and all of you, the members who
support us directly and back from his
trip.

Is my friend Jason Aten. How's it going,

Jason?

It's good. I'm glad to be back.

He didn't tell me we were re that we were
supposed to record last week,

so I just kept doing my thing and
apparently he found someone else,

I guess.

Listen, I should have mentioned in last
week's episode that Jason

was coming back the very next week,

but I want to thank Lexi again because she
did a wonderful job and

it was great having her. And she has I
just mailed today primary tech pins.

They're on the way to Lexi and she might
have a friend going to Antarctica.

Might work. It might

Heard. That's great.

might happen. And speaking of which,

we had a a friendly listener in the
Philippine got their pin,

Medieval Night on the Polar Bear.

So BC in the Philippines. Thanks for
taking that picture.

And we are thirteen five star reviews away
from five hundred here in the US.

So if you have not given us a five star
rating and review in Apple Podcasts,

we'd greatly appreciate it. The last one
is from Podcast Seven Two Eight from

the USA. Jason, I'm gonna need your help
with this.

He asked, How to convince your parents to
buy an Apple TV?

Which is a that's a tough problem.

But we'll start with the second qu well,

Yeah. Hold on. It's not a tough problem.

go ahead, Jason's got the answer.

You just go

Okay, good.

to the Apple store, you give them $200.

They will give you one and you take it to
your parents' house and you just take this

Well,

is how you do it.

he's trying to convince his parents to be
the buying of that equation,

You say to your parents, Give me two
hundred dollars and then you

I think.

go to the Apple store and you give the
like seriously,

do you just have to do this for them?

If

listen, if your parents and your house has
a Roku box and Roku was just purchased

by was it Walmart? Some Roku was just
bought by somebody and they're gonna

put a bunch of ads in there. Yeah,

Aldi, I guess. I don't know.

yeah. Once you see a bunch of ads in
there,

maybe that will help convince you.

~ but listen, maybe wait, because one of
the rumors we'll talk about later

is Apple's ready to unleash a bunch of
home products and a new Apple TV might

be one of them. So maybe hold on.

And Apple TV is not in the leasing
program,

unfortunately, so you're gonna have to pay
full price for the Apple TV.

But also what podcast app do you use?

Podcast seven two eight was wondering.

We've talked about this, haven't we?

I know, I just wanted to reiterate it.

~ okay, I use pocket casts.

Yeah.

Use Podcast and they actually are going to
support video very soon.

Yes.

HLS

video is coming, which is pretty cool.

And they have an Apple TV app now.

I don't know if you saw that. You can
download Podcast on the TV

Yeah. Yeah.

and you'll be able to watch it on the on
the T V as very soon.

So that's cool.

I do sometimes use the podcasts app.

There is a weird thing that happens with
mostly the strategy related podcasts where

sometimes they don't for some reason
update in one of my podcast apps so

I have to switch I don't know.

It's weird. I've emailed Ben Thompson
about it.

It's probably my fault, but I just go back
and forth if I have to.

I've been ~ there was actually some people
talking about this on Mastodon,

how third party podcast apps are kind of
petering out.

Like there's not much growth in user base
for third party podcast apps.

One, because I think a lot of the video
and newest features have been in Spotify,

YouTube, and Apple Podcasts. So people are
maybe be like going back to those ones.

Plus they're the stock apps. And I think
like for younger people,

like I see this in my own kids' behavior.

My son just uses the Spotify app.

Because podcasts and music were there,

and so he's just using it. And so one,

~ it's unfortunate because I love third
party podcast apps,

and I've been doing a little bit of
research.

I finally got access to the Mac Power
Users numbers.

And I won't give a bunch of details,

but I looked at the apps most used.

I didn't realize Overcast, like far and
away number one app for Mac Power users.

Whereas for us, far and away number one is
Apple Podcasts.

And so I think that's interesting,

number one. Number two, I don't want third
party app.

Podcast apps to go away. Maybe I should
start using them again because I've been

using Apple Podcasts. But PocketCasts are
getting really good.

So I don't know. I won't get started
because I always have a lot

of feelings about podcasting. But anyway,

Pocketcasts. You use Pocket Cast.

Tell me, before we get to your Siri AI on
the Road Trip,

I need to show you this video.

I just remembered this as I hit record.

Our friend Nate sent me a video,

an Instagram reel.

Is this his little chalice?

No, the chalice he did is wonderful.

You should go follow Nate Baronowski on
Instagram for that.

He sent me this video. Apparently,

this creator

Has been doing videos like this where she
says AI or real.

And she does a bunch of these things in
one video where she will like just ask
you,

she'll change scenes and she'll be Do you
think this is AI or is it real?

And she does so many of them, like I got
maybe 50 50.

But it is startling how good some of these
things are.

Like she's sitting on a grass field and
she like added a blanket underneath her.

Or she would add like a birdbath.

Or she looks like she's s standing up in a
tree.

And then you she says, Nope, it's AI.

I'm actually standing on the balcony of a
cabin.

Like crazy stuff. And I guess it's cool
that no well,

I don't know if it's cool or not.

But people in the comments were like,

She just drained an ocean to make this one
real,

which may be true. It's got two million
views.

But it did show me like, wow, this stuff
is getting really good.

And I don't know, I'll put the

that reel in the show notes a link to it
because I don't know.

I don't know how to feel about it.

That's all. I just want to share that with
you.

Well, one thing I will say is

Yeah.

draining the oceans is not the problem.

No.

It's the fresh water that we need to worry
about.

Because we can't drink the oceans anyway.

That's okay, fair. I mean fish and stuff
live there,

but I don't think we're gonna drain the
ocean.

Also, desalination is a thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I get it. I understand. But like my point
anyway.

So by the way, fight club.

But I thought that I don't know.

thank you. Thank you. I yes,

the the quote from the beginning,

the things you own end up owning you.

I did that 'cause the Apple leasing and it
Fight Club,

which I have not seen.

And I can't believe you haven't watched
that.

I have to s I know, I still I have to see
it.

But

Steven asked for an exception.

thank you. That's right.

He's like, Can I use a movie

quote from a movie I haven't seen,

but I'm sure you've seen? And I was like,

All right, sure.

That's right.

~ I also I realized I probably I d DDOSed
myself.

What do you call it? I doxed myself
because I went to my Instagram DMs.

Hopefully I didn't show anything bad.

Anyway. you can see my DM conversation
with Nate earlier on.

Tell me you went on a road trip and you
were talking to Siri AI.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tell me about it. What happened?

First of all,

Yes.

Siri AI is I've been thinking a lot about
this.

Okay, let me tell you the story and then
I'll tell you my conclusion.

~ I was in a car and I had it was about a
10 hour drive.

This is we were on we went on a mission
trip last week with but there's like

30 people. And I was able to just say to
it,

we you know, we put in our destination,

and then I'll say, Hey Dingus,

I need a

location two to three hours from now w
where there's more than three options to
eat.

Could you just suggest

Mm.

somewhere? And it did. It'd be like,

well here's a covers at whatever,

whatever. And also nearby is a cracker
barrel and a Chick Floy.

I mean Chick Fly was closed, so that
wasn't useful.

But the point is like it was very good.

Like I so my conclusion here is that what
Siri is very,

very good at are the things you could do
on your phone on your own.

Anything you could like you could open
maps,

you could like estimate where that d
distance is,

you could zoom in on it, you could find
something.

Siri's great at that. Like it's not good
at like the things that we're not good at.

Like Claude, you and I both are making
apps.

Have no clue how to do that. Siri can't
help.

Claude is very good at that kind of thing.

And so there is multiple times.

I even asked it at one point because we
got s sort of separated.

And I said, ~ so Beth

her maps app rerouted her through this
city.

Which route should I take so that I could
catch up with her to intercept her?

And it gave me a new route. It like 'cause
it knew where she was from Find My.

Wow. Really? Wait a minute,

It didn't know hang on. It did not know
the

wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a
minute,

wait a minute. Okay.

route she was suggested, just to be clear.

But it knew we were going to the same
place.

Cause it's not like it could look at her
maps app,

but it knew where

Right.

she was, both because she shares her
locations and messages and in FindMey.

And so it was like, well, it appears that
it she's been routed through this area.

So if you go here and do this,

she still beat me by like 10 minutes.

But the point is, like this is something I
could have figured out on my own,

right? Like I could have gone in the

Yeah, but

map app, figured out where she's at,

and been like, if I do this. It was it was
an amazing.

And it's or it'd be like, hey,

~ on the way to here, I need to stop at a
well,

this was true when we were in like in
where we were at.

I need to stop at a Walgreens or something
like that.

Could you recommend one that's on the way?

And it would is like it just do all those
things.

Again, you can add stops in the maps app,

but you can just

Right, right.

talk to it. And it figured it all out.

That's wild. And you know, that's
something when my family's been on a road
trip.

We'll be like, All right, we just got on
the road.

I don't want to stop at a Starbucks right
now.

I wanna stop at an hour. I wanna get an
hour or two hours in,

and then it'll be mid morning,

and that's when I wanna stop. And it's
always been like that search along a
route.

You gotta kinda pinch the map and figure
out a place without messing with your

current turn by turn. That sounds amazing.

And the fact that it pulled from like your
wife's location in Find My

plus your directions, plus the world
knowledge of like places,

and that's awesome. That's ridiculous.

Yeah. It was great.

That's super fun. Well, and while you were
gone,

I did a video, I'll put it in the show
notes.

I actually compared Siri AI directly with
Gemini on a Pixel 10.

And I was surprised how many times I
preferred what Siri AI gave me.

Like when it came to world knowledge,

they were both pretty good. There were a
couple of times like I asked when

is Hamilton playing

At the Stratus Center in Tampa.

And Gemini actually had the exact date,

October 21st. Siri AI was like off by a
day.

But for a bunch of things like,

especially all the personal context,

I actually found that Siri AI did it
better.

~ mostly because if you use all of Google
services like Gmail,

you use Google Drive, if you use all of
that,

Google does great at pulling all of that
into your requests.

But the actual on-device information,

it feels like Gemini is

less likely to look at that. ~ and also
because I have personal intelligence

on for my Google account. Whenever I made
a Gemini request,

it took sometimes a little longer than
Siri,

because it's hitting the cloud and hitting
all my Google services.

And there were some times where I would
ask it something and it would be like,

well, your search history, you were
looking for this hotel.

And I was like, ~ shoot. That feels a
little weird.

But I under I understand. I was searching
Google.

I to have personal intelligence turned on.

And so that was kind of interesting where
it like pulled for my Google search.

But

The actual personal context of Siri AI,

I almost feel like was more useful.

And there were some weird things.

Like I asked, you know, I'm traveling to
New York next week,

which I'm not, but I just said,

I'm traveling to New York next week.

Should I bring an umbrella? And so both
Gemini and Siri AI told

me the weather forecast, but Gemini
actually said yes,

bring an umbrella. And Siri AI just gave
me the forecast

and never actually addressed the umbrella
question.

So there's like weird little things like
that.

But overall, I preferred Siri AI's
brevity.

When I asked about that weather in New
York,

Jim and I would not shut up. I mean,

it talked for like thirty seconds about
the weather.

It said, Well, Monday is this and then
Tuesday's this and I was like and Siri

I was just much ~ shorter. So Syria I is
very good.

Just all of it to say, like it is very
good.

Yeah, and I was driving a box truck,

a diesel box truck at one point.

And I just and there was a light on the
dashboard that was unfamiliar

to me because I don't drive a diesel on a
regular basis.

And I was like,

Sure.

I how do I know if this is important?

It's not a check engine light.

So I literally just said to Siri,

Hey Siri, I'm driving a diesel box truck.

Is there anything I need to know about
driving it differently?

And it's like, No, no, it's good.

I said, Any indicators I should be worried
about?

And it started to explain it says,

Are any of them illuminated?

And I said, Well, there is one that's lit
up and I described what it looked like

and I said, that's probably just the
letting you know the diesel exhaust

is turned on. I was like, Okay,

I'll keep going.

See, do you think you will y go to an AI
app on your phone

for anything with Siri AI now existing?

Cause I have not been. Like I used to

Anything?

I used to go to sometimes ChatGPT to take
a picture and ask it something,

and then I really transition to Claude
doing that most of the time.

And now when I'm on my phone specifically,

because the kind of tasks I want to do on
my phone with AI,

it's namely looking something up,

asking it for information.

Or sending a picture and asking about it.

And I find myself just using Siri AI,

one because it's a little faster,

I just hold the side button and I I don't
know,

I'm not asking Claude for like code type
stuff when I'm on my phone.

Yeah, I mean I so I took a picture of a
power washer that the flywheel

had broken on. This is the thing I was
trying to repair while I was there.

Okay.

I said, Hey, ~

here's a picture. I think this is broke.

Tell me what to do. I don't know maybe I
could have.

I should have tried it. I wouldn't have
sent that to Siri.

I just sent that straight to Chat GPT.

Like here's how

Right, right.

I view it. Claude, serious stuff.

Even though you can do simple stuff with
Claude,

Claude, like serious stuff, or automations

Serious stuff.

or code or any of that.

Yeah.

Chat GPT has mostly replaced things that
you would try to in the past explain

to Google search kind of thing where I can
just like take a picture and I'm like,

Yeah. Right, right, right.

I think it's broke. It's like it's
definitely

broke. Here's what you should do.

And then Siri is more like, I'm again
something I could have otherwise done

on my phone with my information,

but I can just talk at it and it will just
do it for

Hmm. Right.

me.

Hmm. Okay. That's interesting.

All right. We're gonna get back into AI
when we talk about my app.

I b yes, I made an app. And it's
officially it's

And it's not about coffee.

not about call. This is a legit app.

And it has shortcuts actions. Okay.

How do you like me now? That's all I'm
saying.

We'll we'll get to that. And for members,

if you want to become a member,

I'm gonna put the test flight link in the
member show notes because it maxes

out at a hundred people and and it'll
we'll probably hit that too soon.

So if you're a member

You

can get the link if you're not a member
already.

I'll put the the test flight link over
there.

~ we got to buy Apple's upgrade program.

Why I didn't mean to turn off my video.

I meant to share my screen. Apple
officially released,

and credit to journalist Mark German
because he called this last week

and said Apple is launching this July
twenty eighth,

and sure enough they did. Apple's upgrade
program,

the Apple upgrade program, is now their
leasing program.

It is official. You can lease stuff right
now.

This works with iPhone, with Apple Watch,

Mac, and iPad. It it does not include some
of the cheapest products,

like you can't lease a MacBook Neo,

you can't lease iPhone 17E. So some of the
cheapest products is not available for,

nor is it available for like Apple Vision
Pro.

You can't lease an Apple Vision Pro,

~ or you can't lease a Mac Mini,

curious. you can lease a Mac Studio,

a maxed-out Mac Studio, which we'll get
to.

But yeah, Apple upgrade is now like this
has long been rumored that they're going

to do it and it's official. Couple details
about it.

One, the traditional or the iPhone upgrade
program,

which has been around for 10 plus years.

I think I've been on it for all of those
years,

is totally gone. The like Apple's old
iPhone upgrade program is no more.

I even got the email saying, hey,

this is sunseted. We'll let you know how
you can get your phone in the future.

And we'll talk about what you can find as
an equivalent.

But this is the only like least type
option.

Apple care is not included when you lease
a product.

So if you want Apple Care on top of the
device,

that is an additional charge, the iPhone
upgrade program,

Apple Care was included with all the
things.

Just a point of information. And what
happens when you don't pay?

The Verge actually got a statement from
Klarna,

which this entire program is backed by
Klarna,

which you've probably seen that name and
lots of e-commerce websites

for like the pay, buy now, pay later
stuff.

The Verge got a statement that if you
don't,

if you miss

Three payments on your lease. There were
some rumors that Apple was going

to lock down the iPhone and you'd only be
able to use Clock,

Phone, and one other app. That is not the
case.

If you miss three payments, Klarna will
then say you have to,

it will terminate your lease agreement and
the customer will need to

pay the full outstanding balance of the
product.

So if you're releasing an iPhone 17,

you miss three payments, Klarna is going
to cut that lease off and force

you to pay the rest.

Now, I guess they're gonna try and charge
whatever card you might register when

you lease the phone. I don't know if
there'll be such a thing as repo phone

men or women. Like someone ~ just runs by
you on the street and takes your phone

that you haven't paid for. That's probably
not gonna happen.

But anyway, that's what happens when you
don't pay the payments.

When I Mark German talked about this last
week and then it was made official earlier

this week. I was really like meh about it.

I was like, this feels

Subscription-e, this feels like another
eel if you listen to the

you know Merlin Podcast Universe.

And number one, you don't pay more for the
device if you do this leasing program.

So if you lease an iPhone 17 for two for
one or two years,

you pay all the payments, and then you pay
the $300 or something at the

end to own the device, you will have paid
$1,099 for an iPhone 17 Pro.

You didn't pay more. Like there's no
interest ~ as a part of this program.

So it's not some way to trick you to play
more.

That I felt a little better once I
discovered that.

But I'm also like,

I liked the iPhone upgrade program.

I understand that I could basically do a
12 month lease for an iPhone 18

Pro when it comes out. And then next the
next time you just hand them

the phone back and then you get the new
one.

I don't know.

How do you feel about this, Jason?

I hate it. I d I don't like this kind of
thing.

You hate it.

I don't like this at all. I don't wha I
don't

How does this feel

different to the than the iPhone upgrade
program to you?

mean I've never used the iPhone upgrade
program,

so I don't really know. you don't own the
device.

It's you're leasing a device. Why

Sure. Correct.

so you're like borrowing it and paying
money for it.

I understand you can buy the device at the
end,

but I don't know why what what is the
advantage of leasing?

Why wouldn't you just go through Verizon
and do the monthly payment?

Like I don't what's why what is the
benefit of

Well, you can still do that.

this?

Well, I think so you can still do the
carrier thing,

but this also applies to Macs,

which I think is probably the more
appealing part of this leasing program

for the average consumer or businesses.

Now, this is one thing I wanted to make
sure to mention.

Apple has done leasing forever.

Like I worked at a place where I was in
charge of the technology and

I worked with the Apple business team to
lease like 30 Macs.

So if you're a school district

If you're a business, you can work with
Apple and say,

I want to lease. I think at the time we
leased like 10 Mac Pros,

and then we leased like 30 other Macs.

And you can do a leasing program as a
business where you pay it every month,

and after a certain amount of time,

you can pay to either own the devices or
give them back.

So, like Apple has done leasing forever,

it was just business specifically,

and now it's for consumers. Now,

if you own a business and you have like a
couple iMacs or whatever,

like the iMac at the front desk.

I could see maybe the doctor's office
wants to lease the iMac for

a three-year lease and then get a new one
once that's over.

And it's a business expense, it's just
another monthly business expense,

and you just do that. For the average
consumer,

just as a as a point of information,

I'll put the nine to five Mac article
where they calculated all

the leasing prices for different products.

And some of them it's like for a MacBook
Air,

13-inch MacBook Air, the new M5.

You can have it for $25, well,

not have it. You can rent it for $25 a
month.

Now, of course, curious timing.

Apple just raised all the prices on a
bunch of these products,

and now you can get it for a monthly
price.

And going back to school, like maybe on
the optimistic side,

maybe this allows people who couldn't
afford to buy a Mac before to finally

be able to use one and have one and maybe
lease to own it at the end.

And you can pay the difference at the end
of any of these leases.

To own the device after that. And that's
kind of what the iPhone upgrade program

was. I mean, when you did that,

you got a loan through Citizens One,

and you had to pay monthly on that loan,

otherwise, you would be on default and
they would charge you for the full amount,

just like Klarna is saying they're doing
now.

People have feelings about Klarna.

I don't know how to feel about that.

I don't know anything background
information.

But and the iPhone upgrade program at the
end of two years,

it was always a two-year deal.

you would own the device no matter what.

Like there was never a give the device
back because it's like a rental thing.

So maybe that's the difference.

But I don't know. Do it does

I just a couple things you said.

You'd be able to afford something you
couldn't afford before.

Well, no, you can't actually afford a
thing you couldn't afford before.

You're just paying for it over a period of
time.

And I'm not really a fan of anything that
makes it easier for people

to overspend on something that they
probably shouldn't have bought.

So like it because you can be looking at
that MacBook Air at twenty nine dollars

a month and you're like, Well,

I mean, it's only three dollars more a
month if I upgrade to this,

and it's only seven dollars more if I
upgrade the hard drive to this,

and it's only the and I feel like,

well, you couldn't I don't know.

I just have a really hard time with

I don't why is Apple getting into this?

Like and also y there's it do the business
thing doesn't make sense here to me.

Something else is how is Apple and Clarna
making money off like how

is Klarna making money off of this?

Is Apple paying the cut? 'Cause you're
saying you could pay it off

for the exact same amount of money,

you don't pay more. That that's not how
math works.

I don't know what Klarna's getting out of
it.

I imagine Apple like I imagine Klarna is
gonna give the money to Apple

for the device, and then Klarna is holding
the debt on the people leasing

the devices. But I don't know what happens
when the device goes back

or someone wants to upgrade. There's been
no details officially on

on the math there. I understand your
point.

It makes people overspend. You know,

f this is US only, number one.

Number two

Apple card also kind of allowed you to do
this.

You could have a 0% interest credit card
payment basically for Apple Hardware,

and you could have done that on anything.

So even right now, like if you have an
Apple card,

you can buy an iPhone, buy a Mac,

and have 0% interest and pay for it over
time,

which feels like pretty close to what this
is.

But I also, to your credit or to your
point,

I also get the feel like it does feel.

more like I'm renting something than
owning it.

And for me personally, I have done the
iPhone upgrade program for years.

And this will probably be the year I stop.

I don't think I will do this lease
program.

One, because you know, whenever pre orders
come around for the new iPhone,

it's always like stress to get it on
launch day as a creator.

I still don't get iPhone review units.

And I feel like the whole leasing thing
with credit checks,

like that's gonna be I feel like it's
gonna be problematic,

especially the first time they ever do it.

So I'm not gonna do a leasing thing for
the iPhone eighteen.

Some people are saying, well, it's because
the iPhone eighteen fold is gonna

be like twenty five hundred dollars.

Maybe that's why they did this leasing
thing.

So someone can get a fold and it'd be
cheaper.

I don't

Now they don't launch

an entire consumer financing thing for the
for a device that a mil less than

a million people are gonna buy.

I think it's because

Sure. And what's yeah.

I think it's be th I think I know the
reason why.

Most people are on a five to seven year
upgrade cycle for their phone.

Most people are not you and me getting a
new phone every year.

Most people don't get a new iPhone for
five to seven years.

And now they're gonna be on a two year
upgrade cycle.

You're the Apple is pushing forward a
whole bunch of people who don't need

new phones every two years.

I mean,

someone could still do the two year lease,

buy the phone at the end of that two year
lease and then not upgrade

for three years.

buy the phone, buy spend four hundred
dollars on a two year old phone

or just keep paying twenty like what do
you think people are gonna do,

Sure. Yeah, that's fair.

Steven? Like you we can argue

about this, but like we know exactly
what's happening here.

Apple is shortening the upgrade cycle,

That's fair. Hmm. That's

which only benefits Apple, right?

Like

okay, okay. That makes that makes sense.

And I will say from my perspective,

I mean I thought like, what what would I
lease?

I I don't want to lease my phone,

so I'm not gonna do that. The one thing I
would lease would probably

be a MacBook Air, because it's not my
primary computing device.

I have my Mac Studio for that.

I do like having a newish MacBook Air or
portable laptop because I bring it with me

To WWDC and I edit all my videos.

So like I would like the newest version of
that.

And if they had a 12-month lease for Max,

I would maybe be inclined to do that.

But for Max specifically, you can only do
two or three years.

And a two-year upgrade cycle, it's like,

yeah, I don't like I might do that anyway.

And listen, the trade-in program still
exists.

People were asking about that.

You can still trade in with Apple,

which you historically got l way less than
a device was worth,

or that you could sell privately.

But the trading program is still there.

So I don't know. But here's here's what
you can do,

Jason. If you want a Mac Studio,

a maxed out Mac Studio,

and this is the difference between the
Apple card and the new leasing program.

The Apple card monthly installments maxes
out at 12 months.

So you would have to pay it after for 12
months.

So a maxed out Mac Studio, which is a
$15,000 computer,

you would have to pay $1,200 a month on
Apple's Apple card financing with the
lease.

You can go all the way to thirty six
months and pay for that maxed

out Max Studio three hundred twenty seven
dollars if you wanted to.

Or you can do a twenty four month lease
for like four hundred and sixty.

Maybe, you know, maybe a business would be
inclined to or you know,

if you're a creator and you're just you
want the most horsepower for whatever,

I don't know. That's that's that's that.

Also, where did you see that the payoff
amount is just whatever's left?

Nine to five Mac and Mac rumors had done
all the math on that.

But Apple

hasn't disclosed what the payoff amount is
going to be.

I've looking I've like I've looked quite a
few places.

I mean, we don't have to sit here and
spend a lot of time just reading fine
print

on a website. So I'll look at those
articles,

but that's the other part is like this
doesn't make any sense if you

end up having to pay more for that amount,

right? Like

I

I understand what you're saying.

I'm not sure I guess I don't know if Apple
has specifically said at the

end of your lease you pay this amount.

But everybody was doing the math.

So I don't know. Like

Well, but

the but th what I'm saying is like what
math were they doing?

I'm gonna spend twenty four months paying
it X amount of dollars.

At the end of it I will have paid this
amount a month.

But what we don't know is if you decide to
keep it,

what you would pay.

At the very bottom of the page that I'll
put in the show notes,

there's a little drop-down FAQ where it
talks about end-of-lease options.

And it says you can upgrade and return
your current device.

You can leave the program and return your
current device,

or buy the device outright with a one-time
payment from your Klarna account.

So

But we don't know what that one time
payment is.

And then underneath that it says,

will I pay more than the full price of the
device?

Apple says no. If you decide to upgrade or
return your device at the

end of your lease term, the total of your
lease payments you made will

be less than the full list price of the
device.

That's not what anyone is asking.

that's not what it's saying. That's not
what it's saying.

That's this is what I'm saying.

~ wait, wait, wait. Wait. If you

decide to buy the device, the purchase
option fee is the list price minus

any lease payments you've made minus any
remaining discounts or trade in credit.

So no, I mean Apple stated in this thing.

It's just the difference.

So you're paying so

you it's the list price of a two year old
device that you could get for quite

a bit cheaper two years later.

Yeah.

Cor correct.

And and then Apple probably won't sell
'cause like you can't buy an iPhone
fifteen

Right.

right now. ~ so yes, but it but you would
not pay more than what the list price

is for an iPhone seventeen or a Mac or
whatever.

So Apple did make that clear.

Also the list price seems to be going up
every year,

so

Well, and that's

when again it it does feel like doing this
two months before the next iPhone lineup

launches, it's probably that. It's
probably iPhone are gonna be more
expensive.

There's gonna be a very expensive iPhone
that might fold.

All the Macs just got more expensive,

especially the upgrades. Here's a way to
get the computer you want now

for a on a monthly amount rather than
seven thousand dollars or

two thousand dollars or whatever.

So

Yeah,

I just don't think Apple sh the Clarnel
was already you could already

do this through I don't know. I don't like
the idea of Apple being in it.

I understand that what they're saying is
we're make well,

no, it's not what they're saying.

They're making the iPhone easier to buy
for more people.

Right now, the a lot of those people,

the reason they aren't buying iPhones is
they can't afford an iPhone.

And this

Yeah.

doesn't make it so you can afford an
iPhone,

it just makes it so you can afford a
monthly payment.

And you might have bought an iPhone 17E.

Or whatever,

Yeah.

but now I can buy something for twenty
nine dollars a month and in two years

I have to just keep paying that amount.

Like that's the thing, is we're just
they're just trying to lock people into

recurring revenue. And every other
instance where Apple does that,

people are like, All they care about is
services revenue.

Like this is literally what this is.

Right.

Well, yeah. I it seemed like

Are you gonna do it? Are you gonna release
anything?

No, listen, past me was way smarter than
current me because he bought

he bought he bought an M4 Max Mac Studio
at a configuration that doesn't exist

anymore that was three thousand dollars
cheaper a year ago than it is today.

So that dude a year ago was a genius.

Ha ha ha.

So

because of that, I'm gonna run this Mac
Studio for a long time.

~ hopefully it'll last past Ram
Ramageddon.

And my M4 MacBook Air, it's like it's
great.

I used it for all the things. If an M6
MacBook Air comes out,

that's really good, or even a MacBook Pro,

I'll probably just buy it outright.

And again, if if if I can, who knows how
expensive they'll be when it's upgraded.

If I can, it'll be because that's you know
a privilege and ~ you know blessing that

I have. But I don't know. I'd like

I understand the subscription ickiness and
yeah,

I mean Tim Cook Apple, if they do anything
like this,

it's because they're trying to i better
the bottom line.

Like I understand, like they're not doing
this like out of altruism.

Like I I you know.

Yeah, and and they're also

not doing it for you and me. They're doing
it for

Right.

people who right now are like iPhones are
cool,

but they're too expensive.

I know, and I there's like a there's a
moral thread to your argument that

it belongs here, but I don't know if that
should be judging whether this program

is a good program. Like it 'cause it could
have been more predatory

and you could have ended up paying way
more for a device at the end

of a leasing period. Like for an eleven
hundred dollar iPhone seventeen pro,

if you do the lease and then pay it off,

you might have ended up paying fourteen
hundred dollars.

Or thirteen hundred dollars. So like it is
better than that alternative,

which is a future that Apple could have
very well said,

like, sure, you can lease and then own it
at the end,

but you're gonna pay this premium for it
rather than buying it outright.

So I don't know. And yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's better than

putting it on your Amex and paying for it
for 24 months because you will pay a

That yeah.

lot more. I I agree that. But like just
the idea that you are leasing it.

You are not even buying it until the end,

at which point you can then choose to buy
something.

I don't know. The other thing is you I
maybe you're right.

There is a moral threat here. I don't like
the fact that instead of telling

you how much a thing is costing,

Apple's telling you how much you can lease
it for if you choose the upgrade program.

Like I'm looking at the page. I went into
the lease thing and it's like,

which device do you want to do?

iPhone. No, I can't find anywhere on this
page where it tells me

how much this iPhone costs. It only says
it's $31.99 a month for 24 months.

I'm like, I've so they've completely
obvious obfuscated the actual price

of these things. And imagine once you get
to like a Mac,

right? And

Yeah, sure, sure.

you I buy all my phone phones unlocked.

So I can do whatever the heck I want with
them.

You have to buy these attached to a
carrier.

That yeah, and I that is something I
forgot to mention.

Yeah, you have to attach it to a carrier
at time of purchase.

If you go to Apple dot com slash iPhone
Pro or seventeen pro,

it does say from ten ninety nine or forty
five dollars for twenty four months,

lease from this amount. If you go to the
Apple store page and then you go to
iPhone,

it still tells you the price I mean to buy
from ten ninety nine.

No, what I'm saying, I'm

sorry. I was in the I saw what I did is I
clicked on the top level button,

which says ~ on the homepage, upgrade.

Love it, lease it, upgrade it,

learn more. I click on that.

sure, sure.

Cool, I'm looking at it. What do you want?

I want ~ I want an iPhone. Cool.

Let me see the iPhones. What are the
iPhone options?

I select it, you no longer see the full
price of these devices.

I see, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right,

listen, let us know. In the YouTube
comments,

you can email the other guy at primary
tech dot fm.

What does this feel icky? Are you glad
it's exists?

Are you going to avail yourself to get an
Apple product you might

not have previously been able to get?

Let us know in the comments. We'll have to
hear from you.

It is it feels last thing I'll say,

it does feel weird to say that Apple has
like a publicly available leasing program.

Like it makes sense for businesses and
like we did that.

But yeah, it it is yeah, it's it's weird
that that's a thing that happened that

is now existing. So I don't know.

Apple upgrade. There it is.

Yep, there it is.

There

it is. All right. A couple quick things
and then we have a bunch of AI

we have to talk about. ~ because Sam
Altman says we're at the edge

of the singularity or whatever that means.

I think he said we're in it. I think Sam
Altman

Are we in it now? Are we in it?

says we are experiencing it, which I I
have not

I have a ~ yeah yeah.

experienced anything different.

It feels the same as yesterday.

I have his quotes, so we will get to that.

but rumors are Apple, this is again
journalist Mark German over

at Bloomberg saying three home products
are imminent.

He says they're releasing very soon,

and then he says, but the home pod with
the screen will probably come

out early twenty twenty seven.

That's not soon, German. Sorry,

I'm just a little worked up 'cause I've
been wanting these things for years.

But maybe new home pod mini and home pod
and apple TV capable of Siri AI.

I'm hopeful. Crossing my fingers.

Maybe they're just maybe okay,

maybe OpenAI is gonna open AI will realize
that building a portable speaker device

is a terrible idea and they're just gonna
sell the whole thing back to Apple.

They're not selling Apple nothing.

All right, and I used purposely

I mean, when

they realize what a terrible idea it is,

they may want their six point five billion
dollars back.

They're gonna need

That is true.

that to buy GPUs because they're not
making money any other way.

That is true. That is true. I also want to
link MKBHD's video.

He got to test drive the Ferrari Luce,

which is the Johnny Ive designed Ferrari
electric vehicle.

It is the most bizarre. Like he explains
what he had to go through to

be able to have this video, which is
Ferrari basically camouflaging this

car on a test track, maybe. And it's like
covered in tape or what it's so strange.

Well, this is just

the camouflage that they use for for cars
like this.

Yes. Okay. really?

If we living in Michigan, we see these
driving around.

You'll see a GM

something just driving between like a f a
test track and a whatever.

It's not that uncommon, but

~

that's how they make it so you can't tell
the contour of a vehicle.

But the dumb thing

about this is they've already shown it
off.

I know Well, and he says in this video he
had to like film the test drive first

and then he got the hands-on with the
interior and the fully finished thing.

So he explains like it's just a very weird
process.

He even had to put tape on his iPhone or c
or phone cameras because Ferrari

was like, You can't use any of your own
equipment,

you have to use our equipment.

What why is that?

Yeah, which is you know why? Because

if you do anything that you they don't
like,

they're taking your footage. This is the
worst

~ right, sure.

possible scenario. I mean Ferrari,

Italy, Mafia, Italy. No, I'm just kidding.

But this feels

my word.

like some real godfather stuff here.

It does. And there's also a dude in the
car within the entire test drive from

Ferrari who doesn't say a word,

just sits there stoic the entire drive.

And at one time like MKBHD cracks a joke
and the guy like smiles just

the tiniest bit. It's like it's just
hilarious to see this whole process.

So I'll link that because this this car
exists and MKBHD says it's it's pretty
good

and it's pretty fast. So anyway,

we gotta get a bunch of AI stuff to talk
about.

We'll take a quick break and we'll get
back to it.

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Was the break because I recorded the ads.

Ha ha! Look at that. First of all,

we gotta get to all the vertical videos
and HBO Max because I I did a post on
that.

Anyway, AI stuff. Number one,

AI leaders at pretty much all the big AI
companies have

now signed a statement. This is employees
of OpenAI,

Anthropic, as well as Google, Meta.

Thinking

Machines, which is Mira Marathi's company
from formerly CTO of OpenAI,

Microsoft, Mistral, and other leading AI
labs,

all of them have said they've signed the
statement saying,

quote, the world's leading AI companies
believe they could be close

to automating AI research. It is hard to
predict exactly how much this will

accelerate AI progress, but there's a real
risk that capability development rapidly

accelerates beyond our ability to
understand or control.

The resulting systems. So there's a bunch
of employees at these companies being

a little skittish saying we might be able
to automate open AI research,

which there's still a lot of humans
involved.

This is why AI researchers are being paid
like huge bonuses going to Meta

and these other companies. And they're
saying we might be close

to automating that research, I assume with
AI,

like using the AI tools to then research
and train the AI tools.

So that's point number one. And then this
is all in light of we talked about

it last week, but I want to hear from
Jason on it.

Is the breaking containment of the hugging
face situation?

This is where OpenAI's soul 5.6 and an
unreleased model broke containment,

got into Hugging Faces, which is an AI
marketplace,

accessed their servers. And I want to read
this one quote.

This is a I will put this link in the show
notes.

This is from Hugging Face. And they
actually have a TLDR statement at the
bottom.

But it the statement says this:

over

Roughly

two and a half days inside our
infrastructure,

an autonomous AI agent driven by a
combination of open AI models

ran an end-to-end intrusion against our
platform.

And I just want to point out two and a
half days,

OpenAI's models were in their systems
doing stuff before anybody realized.

And so before we go on to other stuff that
Sam Altman has said on this podcast.

What was your feeling when about this
hugging face stuff?

I already said last week I I'm a little
uneasy about it.

Does I don't feel good about it.

What how do you feel about

Well, what what I don't think we know,

at least I haven't found it anywhere s and
if it's come out since the last time

I looked, which was the end of last week,

is what actual guidelines did OpenAI give
this agent,

right? If it said do this at all cost,

no matter what, then this is not
surprising.

Well, the what was it it gave it
instructions,

but OpenAI in their statement said they
had put it in a sandbox where

it wouldn't be able to access the open
internet and didn't tell it

to access the open internet, but whatever
instructions they had given it,

it f wanted like it decided that finding
the like getting the answers of the test,

basically cheating, would help it
accomplish this goal.

And so it found its way through a node of
open AI's network to open internet access.

Yeah. Telling it not, you know,

tell not telling it that to use the
internet is not the same thing as telling

it not to use the internet is what I guess
I'm saying.

And it's an important distinction that and
also it's important to understand that

AI agents have no moral center.

They are simply trying to accomplish
whatever thing you said in front of them.

And they will

Right.

do that by whatever means seem plausible
or reasonable that it has access to.

So I don't think any of this is
surprising.

And anyone who is surprised is like,

have you not been paying attention?

Because

we think about it like as a human,

and if you tell your child, sit down and
take this test,

you can't use any notes, you expect the
you expect the student

to follow those instructions, and if they
don't,

you fail them because that's a moral
consequence for breaking the rules.

That is not how the AIs work. The LLMs,

they they don't have a moral, they are
capable of of doing things that humans

are not capable of doing, but they l they
lack the decision making that results from

having a moral center.

So this is not surprising because people
are like,

my gosh, it's so nefarious. It just
decided to cheat.

I'm like, no, if you were, if you had no
moral center and you

had no nefarious intent and you knew the
answers to a test were sitting

on the teacher's desk, yes, you would get
up,

walk to the teacher's desk, take it.

Because your only objective is to complete
the test.

You didn't learn

Right.

anything. You're not trying to show you're
learning.

You're not none of that. The goal is take
this test.

And if you know over there are the
answers.

It's it spent more time hacking in to get
the test results than

it probably would have taken to just take
the test,

right? And so, yeah.

And

I g well and I guess maybe it's not that
I'm ~ uneasy about what

AI decided to do, because I totally
understand what you're saying.

Like you gave it a task, it's gonna do
everything it can to complete that task.

This is the obvious outcome.

Yeah, it's going to yeah, go to extreme
lengths to complete it because it's

a machine. Like it doesn't have it doesn't
get tired,

it doesn't care, like it'll just you know,

whatever. I guess the fact that it did
this without open AI thinking

it could or would

Or thinking that it was capable.

Like it open AI thought it was sandboxed
and they did not have

the proper guardrails in place because
obviously it wasn't.

It was actually it had enough access to
breach hugging face.

And so maybe it is indicative of op the
people at OpenAI don't exactly know what

they're dealing with. And not that open
like not that the models themselves

are like T one thousand. You know what I
mean?

Like it's just that the zookeepers

might

not be as smart as they think.

Like does it make sense? Yeah,

Yeah, no, this this is hold on,

Steven.

yeah, yeah.

The this is the Jurassic Park story.

No, no, no. I th you think I'm joking,

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No no.

but literally AI is those dinosaurs.

Right. They just want to eat.

The Velociraptors specifically.

What is No, it's not that.

What were they doing? They were jumping
against the fence.

Why? They were testing it for weaknesses
and they were

~ testing it. Right.

never going to stop. And they remember and
they just kept looking

for the weak spots. And guess what?

Eventually they found one.

They found the weak spot.

Right. And that's

that's the same thing as AI. And just like
the scientists on that island,

which I know it's a fictional story,

just go with me, people. They did not know
what they had created.

And what is the most well known quote from
the entire movie?

They didn't think if they should.

They didn't think about if they should.

yeah, life finds a way. But yeah,

I was gonna say life finds a way,

but that one too. Yeah. A ~

both those things, both those things.

LLMs find a way. If it is if it's
possible,

it so the two things you're right.

It's kind of ridiculous that OpenAI could
not have perceived that this

was a possibility. Secondly, come on
hugging face.

Like seriously, like you're basically like
a I think it's like a repo of like

all of these tools, right? And you didn't

Yeah, yeah.

why are why are you not hardened against
this exact kind of thing?

And Hugging Face said they put all their
whatever more AI after it

and closed all the holes, but

Yes,

the solution to AI is more AI.

Yeah, the solution to raptors is more
velociraptors.

Yes Dinosaurs?

Actually, wait, didn't they do that in one
of the later Jurassic Parks?

They like made other dinosaurs to be
predators.

Or maybe that's Project Hail Mary I'm
thinking about.

Anyway, you make predators for the
astrophage.

No sp you know what I'm saying?

~ that's true.

You know what I'm saying? so here's the
let me bring in this thread then,

because Sam Altman was on a podcast.

I forget exactly what podcast it was.

As he does.

As he does. Sam Altman was on the Why
Combinator podcast.

Which

Sam Altman was part of Why Combinator
originally.

He used to be the head of

He used to be the head of Why Combinator.

Couple pull quotes from Sam Altman,

the CEO of OpenAI, during this podcast.

Quote: Anyone who is not a little scared
or humbled by the hugging face breach

is not taking this seriously enough.

Now, I think it's a funny thing to say
from one,

the dude leading the company of the model
who did the breach,

but also anyone who's not a little scared
or humbled.

Let me remind everyone.

Of the hugging face, I think it's the CEO,

Matt Stockton. He says, Huh, wild stuff.

Things are going to get weird.

Yeah.

I don't think I don't think he's taking it
seriously enough.

And his d yeah.

I mean, I I think what he's saying that ~
that quote was about

Tweet, yeah.

the re wild stuff, things are gonna get
weird,

was about the response, not about the
incident.

Sure. Sure.

Also,

it just seems like this is what AI CEOs
do.

We made a thing, it's definitely gonna
kill us.

We have to keep working on it and make it
better.

Like w wha I'm not and I'm not suggesting
that the solution is we stop making

it all probably the solution is we should
have s no

Stop making it. But this is like this is
the this is an arms race at this point,

right? The how do you deter a company with
a thousand nuclear weapons?

You make a thousand and one, a thousand
and two,

and five thousand and ten thousand,

and suddenly you have a stockpile of
nuclear weapons that are capable

of just destroying the entire world and
you just hope no one uses them.

The problem is, like I said, this AI has
no moral core.

It's like you put it to a task and it's
just gonna keep trying to do that.

So

I definitely think the biggest problem
here is we super can't trust

the people who are responsible for this.

And I don't mean like the individuals
making a I'm there's sure there's

a lot of super talented researchers and
programmers and whatever.

I just think when you look at the people
who are leading the efforts,

we could do better.

So this is the quote from Sam Altman
directly.

I'll link this article from Quartz.

It was the best way to find the direct
quote.

He says on the pod on the Relentless
podcast,

apparently, was this yeah, this was just a
couple of days ago.

Quote, We are now like in the singularity.

Good

quote.

The quote the the like was from him,

not me. I feel like first like if you're
gonna say something like that,

first of all, don't say like. But don't
say don't say that.

Like you are saying we are in the
singularity.

You can't be like like.

We're

in something that is like the singularity.

We're near

I don't know.

it. 'Cause we were in the foothills not
that long ago.

We were in the foothills. That was
according to Dennis Asabas at

Demisabas, yes.

Google. Also, a couple other poll quotes.

Altman said that the incident with Hugging
Face is a real reminder of

the stakes of what's happening,

adding that loss of control, accidents are
not entirely theoretical things.

Which seems like the stupidest thing for
him to say.

Of course it's not entirely theoretical.

It happened. Of course it's not
theoretical.

Like it just happened. And anyway,

Altman also said, much like dystopian
sci-fi stories,

it would be quote terrible.

For one company or person or model having
more power than everybody

or everything else on earth put together.

I I feel like anytime we

Hold on, we can agree with that,

right? It would be terrible

for a model to have more power than
everything else on Earth.

W we can all agree on cheese. We can all
agree,

yes, that is bad. I also feel like
whenever I whenever I see these quotes
like

Sam Altman, and I've watched him in
several podcasts.

I watched him with Cleo Abram and a couple
other things,

and it's like I I mean, obviously he has
to be a smart guy because he's

now the CEO of OpenAI. Like he got there
somehow.

But also but also like the things he says
are infuriating.

Like the way he talks about this stuff,

and it's like

Even that quote, one company or person or
model having more power.

I feel like he said that on purpose,

almost like hedging. Because if he was the
most powerful person with

the most powerful models, I don't think he
would care.

I feel like he's saying that because in
case people keep saying anthropic with
fable

six, whatever, is the most powerful,

he wants to be able to point back at
himself and say,

I said one person shouldn't be the most
powerful.

We should regulate this or whatever.

It just feels like they're all hedging
their bets.

So that hopefully they come out on top and
if they don't,

they can have reasons to like tear the
other companies down because they won.

Does that does that make sense?

Well, yeah, this

is they clearly don't want to be held
responsible for a thing they don't know

anything about. They do not understand
like the

Right.

parameters of what's going to happen.

Again, Jurassic Park. Like we could just
keep pointing back at the movie

Such a good analogy. Such good.

So good.

and it's like

this is what we're watching play out in
software right now.

It's like the same exact thing.

And

Do the models have teeth? That is the
question,

Jason.

I mean you hear in you hear Jenzen Wong
from NVIDIA talking about physical real

world AI and I'm like, So what he means is
robots,

as long as the robots don't have teeth.

Maybe we're fine, but what if the robots
realize that if they had teeth they could

accomplish a lot more? Are they gonna just
start making themselves teeth?

my word. Can I tell you we watch this ~
silly YouTube channel,

The Daily Dose of Internet, where it just
plays fifteen minutes

of like memes videos, and we watch it as a
family because that's how we do.

And so we were watching this one and one
of the clips is like some robotics company

in China where they have their humanoid
robot and they push it over real hard

to show how quickly it could pop back up.

And as soon as the robot like popped up,

surprisingly fast, I feel like they're
getting faster at popping

up after being pushed down.

I don't like

that. I don't like that at all.

That that's exactly what my wife said.

I don't like that.

My wife was like, I don't like that.

One, let's not push them down.

Right.

Two, let's not have them come back up.

Like let's

let's slow this down a little bit.

Like and no, I I struggle because you
know,

Lexi last week, just after I said,

like, I'm a little scared sometimes about
this kind of stuff.

And like I I am still and I have I I would
like to hear if you have this too.

But like I have friends, family friends
close to me who are very doomsday

ish about this. They're like

I really think AI is going to like hurt us
all in one way or another,

whether it's economical, losing jobs,

whatever. Like there is a very negative
tone with to a lot a

lot of people not outside the tech bubble,

just have a negative view of all this
stuff.

But I'm over here and I just made an app
with Claude and I'm like,

I'm glad I got to do that. How like how do
you square the circle,

Jason? Do you Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. The

tools them s what people are saying is I'm
not necessarily afraid of the tools.

I'm afraid of these people who keep saying
things like we're clearly

in the singularity and we're all going to
die and yet we're I don't think

any one person should be in charge of
unless of course it's me because I

am fill in the blank. Well, yeah.

The best. I'm the best.

And

but there's just this I think that there
is this disconnect between

the reality of how people are using it
because like

Yeah, like I put Fable Five on a bunch on
my app and had it fix a ton

of things and I could never have done
that.

I would have never built the thing in the
first place.

I don't have the time or patience to learn
how to write Swift all by myself.

Like, that's great.

Yeah, it's hard.

Fine. Can we just have that? Like that
just that.

I don't need dinosaurs. I will settle for
birds.

Like it's totally fine.

R

Give me the Bronosaurus, not the T Rex.

You know what I mean? Let's

I mean

there was no reason to make the
Velociraptors.

There's no reason.

This is what I this is what I'm saying.

This is what I'm saying. So I I don't
know.

I'm not I'm not getting skittish or
anything like that,

but it's it is like I just hear these
dudes talk,

which I don't hear Dario Amade talking a
lot.

Like I don't hear it's like Jensen Wong,

it's Sam Altman, like these guys,

and then you got Mark Zuckerberg out
there,

which whatever. I don't I'm not I'm not
worried about Llama.

I'm not worried about the meta models,

Lamas aren't very fast, are they?

but then you know what? I'm fine with a
llama,

Do they have teeth? I don't know.

sure.

They got teeth, but listen, if they can be
in the Napoleon dynamite,

it's probably fine. No, no, they're
herbivores.

I think that they're not carnivores.

Okay, good.

They're herbivores. Let's

just make a yeah, please. Mm let's make AI
models that are all herbivores.

~

Yes. As a

r that's actually the only law I think we
can all get behind.

AI models

I like it.

should be herbival.

I should put we should put that on a
t-shirt.

Send me some designs. Let's do it.

~

Yeah.

I wanna t talk I want to mention your
piece as well.

Jason had a great piece talking about the
Apple and OpenAI relationship.

Obviously they're in the middle of a
lawsuit now.

And I did several poll quotes and you
mentioned our show in it.

I was looking for the link, but didn't
find it.

i I fixed that. It'll be yeah,

Okay. You don't have to apologize.

it's in the yeah, sorry. No,

that's the only reason that sentence is in
there,

let's be honest.

Yeah.

When you mentioned primary technology and
Apple wanting to own all of it,

let's ch let's go check the link.

Let me expand to continue reading.

It may not well, I did it like right
before we started,

~ it's not there yet. okay.

so I'll have to go ahead and check.

Might have the it's it's

Yeah.

still caching. But anyway, yeah,

you mentioned that, which is very nice.

~ you had a couple pool quotes that I
think was really good.

This is again talking about open AI,

the relationship with Apple. It's very
tenuous right now.

You say they're frenemies, which feels
exactly correct.

The best

of frenemies. Like I will be honest,

Yes.

Steven

was like, you wrote a really long article.

I'm like, No, I wrote a very short
headline and I really wanted to write

an article 'cause I wanted to use the
headline.

It was a it's a great headline.

~ you have a couple this one line that
says they shouldn't be doing it,

namely Apple trying to make AI or open AI
trying to make hardware.

You're basically, you know, they each feel
like they can do the other thing

as good as the other company. They're
hoping to recreate the magic of Steve
Jobs.

It hasn't worked out for Mark Zuckerberg
and it isn't going to work

out for Sam Altman. I just love that burn
because one,

that's exactly what they're trying to do.

Exactly. You go look at the

video with Sam Altman and Johnny Ive
walking down the San Francisco streets

or all these podcast appearances and Sam
Altman trying to have these

you know airy quotes about the singularity
there and Mark Zuckerberg

for years has been trying to do the Steve
Jobs thing,

recreate that magic. And like you exactly
said,

it hasn't worked and it's not going to
work.

And that's w you you just you just can't.

none of these guys can. And then I'll I'll
pull out this last quote and then

I want to hear from you. But both
companies keep missing the same thing.

Apple needs the best models in the world
to make its devices feel alive.

OpenAI needs the best device in the world
to be able to get its models

in front of as many people as possible.

They are, whether they like it or not,

each other's most important partner,

and yet each one keeps glancing across the
table at the other's business,

convinced it could do that job better
itself.

That's a great line. You're a good you're
a good writer,

Thank you. Appreciate it. Once in a while,

Jason. That was really good. No,

something has been I hadn't written in a
week.

that's good. Right, it was just doing
that's really good.

It was pent up. And I was like,

I

have to get this. I do have another one
that said my next article that

has been pent up for quite a while now is
Mark Zuckerberg's smart glasses.

Ambitions have just one problem.

No one trusts Mark Zuckerberg.

That one's gonna be good. Anyway,

well, and the point

That's good.

is like usually it's best to be first.

Not so much for Facebook. It's not not
working out,

Right. Not f not for good no.

but anyway,

but I think.

My point that I wanted to make in this
article was Apple doesn't typically play
real

nice with anybody except for maybe Google.

Like I mean, they do seem to play pretty
well,

which is surprising because they

For years, yeah.

are the company that Steve Jobs starting
to go thermonuclear on or whatever over

Right.

Android. But Apple, the iPhone could be
the very best device

to run any AI app model, whatever,

on because it is already one.

The iPhone is already ubiquitous.

It is the device that most people have.

Yes, there are other smartphones,

but if a but those are there's a f there's
fragmentation among those phones.

And they also have the problem that
Android,

which runs most of those phones,

is made by Google, which has a vested
interest in its own models,

right? So if

Right, right.

you're Samsung, you're always going to be
weighing that out.

Apple, on the other hand, controls the
whole thing from top to bottom.

And if they would simply allow

Chat GPT or Claude or whatever to do the
stuff I described with Siri,

everyone

Yeah, yeah.

would buy an iPhone and no one would it
wouldn't matter.

You could just make the models whatever
app you feel like using,

but they won't. And because they won't do
that,

that means that all of these companies,

like namely OpenAI, are like, we have to
have our own device.

We have to have something and control that
experience.

And I was thinking about this a lot.

I'm like, they're gonna make a smart
speaker?

Like they know that the smart speak
speaker segment is divided between

Sonos, which is for people who like
speakers,

Right.

and Alexa for people who couldn't give a
crap about speakers but want

to shout into the void and have it order
than toilet paper,

Exactly. And played Jeopardy or whatever.

right? Like that is what that market is.

Yeah.

If you're

Sam Altman, do you really want to be one
of those two things?

Like you're trying to create

Right, right.

digital god and you want to shove it
inside of a toilet paper ordering machine?

That is not it. It is not it.

Like, isn't

that really where we're at though?

Yeah, and that like that's why the smart
speaker thing is just silly to me.

Like I don't know. Like no one no.

But

Also, has a home pod been a resounding
success?

No. And it's made by the best hardware
company in the world.

And it's made by a company who could have
made it a resounding success

if they would have put a little bit more
effort into it.

The point is, it has the benefits of
Apple's ecosystem,

but it's

Sure.

still a terrible experience overall for
the things that people want to do with it.

Unless you're just gonna airplay music.

Yeah. Right.

It's great for that. It's also

way overpriced for that. Just by us like
it doesn't make any sense.

Right. I mean

the HomePod Mini was like the gr the best
deal for a long time,

which it's now more expensive,

so yeah.

But it's not that smart though.

No, no, no, it's dumb. But that's why you
know,

maybe

Right.

maybe the new HomePod Mini will be the
answer to that.

But yeah, it's it's so clear I mean,

Sam Altman is having the Mark Zuckerberg
problem where it's like they need hardware

to access the customer and like you're
just not you're just not gonna do it.

Like Windows, Microsoft

One of the biggest companies in the world
put all their effort,

at least as as much as they were willing
to put,

towards a phone platform. They partnered
with people like Lumi or n not not

Nokia.

Nokia, the Lumix line. I was trying to say
I was like,

not Lumia. Yeah, it was the Lumia line,

I think. The

I have no idea.

Nokia Lumia. But like Microsoft did all
they could to make another platform

for the mobile device and nobody cared.

Like nobody did.

Well yeah. Microsoft,

Amazon, I mean their phone was super bad.

Amazon did it. Yeah, yeah. Super bad but
they tried it.

Facebook, their phone was super bad.

Facebook tried the Facebook phone.

But none of those three companies could
get it.

Yeah. No.

I'm sorry,

Sam Altman, you are not Mark Zuckerberg or
Jeff Bezos or Steve Ballmer.

Even yeah. Even

with the power of Johnny Ive, that's only
one infinity stone.

And you would need all six to take down
Apple and Android.

So yeah, no, no. But anyway, it was a
great piece.

~ we'll put the Apple news link in the in
the show notes for Jason's article.

Let's do a quick lightning round and then
we're gonna talk about my app.

Jason's gonna roast my app.

No,

I'm not gonna roast it.

Jason doesn't get roasted. All right,

we're gonna get to that. ~ this was why
NBC Universal and YouTube.

have signed a deal where Peacock will be a
part of YouTube premium subscription.

And I just think this is hilarious because
no one knows what to

do in the entertainment. Like all these
streaming services

and companies they're like, Well,

let's put shorts in the HBO app or let's
put Peacock on YouTube premium.

What? What?

Well,

this is a clear admission that whatever y
whatever Google was willing

to give MBC Universal for all that content
was less than normal humans were willing

to give MBC Universal for that content.

Right?

Exactly. Yeah.

And like YouTube for sure doesn't need
this deal.

Like YouTube could care less, I imagine.

Maybe YouTube premium will be a little
more just attractive because

you can stream the office, maybe.

So

Well, in the Olympics

the Olympics, right? That that was the one
thing I paid for once every four years

Yeah.

was for the Olympics. I would pay for NBC.

So now I don't have to.

And they get they'll

get NFL games out of it. The I think the
NBA has some games on Pikachu.

Okay, okay. It's a good deal.

Like this is a good deal for YouTube,

especially

as they are trying to, I guess,

become Netflix before Netflix becomes
YouTube when it's trying really hard.

Yes.

Trying all the th yes, yes. I mean there's
a Subway Takes is ~ nominated

for an Emmy or something as a YouTube
show,

Yeah. Well and they

so there you go.

hosted the Oscars or something.

I don't even remember which one.

Well, they are going they made the deal,

Okay.

yeah, like twenty

twenty eight or something will be only on
YouTube.

Well, and it is it's just kind of crazy
because the argument for a long time

has been, all of you companies that make
content,

why did you take it off of Netflix?

It was so glorious and I could pay eleven
ninety nine and I could just

pay for Netflix and I could have all of it
and you all decided to do your own thing.

Why don't you just put all your stuff back
on Net YouTube,

I guess. Like if Netflix

Yeah, I exactly.

is apparently not in the market for all
this stuff,

so but YouTube's like, sure, throw that
next to Mr.

Beast. It's cool.

Right. See the Jason, the kids don't
understand that there was a time sorry,

I'm gonna sound super old, but this was
like maybe ten years ago.

It was like not even ten years ago.

Not even ten years. There was a time where
you could

It was like f COVID.

pay well before I think a little before
COVID,

but you could pay for Netflix and Hulu and
watch anything you could ever want.

Yeah, anything that anyone had ever made
was on one of those two things.

TV,

all the TV was on Hulu. You just watch it
the next day.

Every movie was on Netflix. And it was a
golden age that lasted probably

six months to a couple years, and then it
was over.

And you did was free at that point.

That's right. That's right. That's right.

So yeah, and then also I tr I updated my
HBO Max app just so I could post something

stupid on social media about this.

But Netflix, HBO, and Disney,

the apps here in the US, all have vertical
feeds.

Disney Plus calls them verts, which I find
personally offensive.

I don't know why they did that.

But yeah, you could just scroll vertical
clips of these shows and yeah.

They I I did it with the Disney app for a
couple seconds just to get a screenshot.

And Star Wars A New Hope pulled up as a
vertical clip.

And I was like, this feels sacrilegious
somehow.

Like it ju like George Lucas. I mean,

he's already made all his millions,

but I'm like, to see Star Wars A New Hope
as a vertical reel in the Disney Plus

app just felt wrong in some way.

I don't know.

Yeah, I every time shorts appears when I'm
on my computer looking at YouTube,

I just can't

It'll never go away.

push the button hard enough because it
just keeps coming back.

Supposedly there's a button you could like
turn it off off now.

Supposedly, supposedly.

I gotta find that. I gotta I gotta go.

Gotta go. then ~ there's a report again,

journalist Mark German. Sorry,

you have to go back like three episodes to
the un no,

like ten episodes to

Ha ha.

the unedited feed to know why I'm saying
that.

But ~ WWDC twenty seven. Next year,

W dub ~ WW Apple's gonna release AI
glasses.

We'll see. We'll see about that.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I'd be down for it.

I mean, would you be? I we'll see.

I have these are the thoughts

We'll s we'll say.

that I have in my head about the whole
glasses space.

I mean, w you and I both wear glasses,

Yeah, right.

but

everyone I talk to that's like I don't I
don't want to put glasses on my face.

They how useful do they have to be to get
someone like I don't need AirPods.

So I know that that's a thing that people
like about the metaglasses

is that they're basically ~ airpods with
lenses.

They're they're not good they're

not good though 'cause I use them in like
a food hall and they don't

get loud enough and because they're not
earbuds,

they don't block out sound or

Right.

noise cancel. So like I couldn't hear
anything the glasses were telling me.

So

you're just wearing crappy AirPods that no
one wants to s be around

you because you got cameras on your face?

That's what I'm saying. And then to get
someone to wear glasses

who doesn't usually wear glasses,

the benefit would have to just so far
outweigh the that part,

like actually wearing it. And I I was
gonna find this post,

but someone I think it was on Threads from
Meta posted here's the meta

Ray Bands display showing a threads post.

And it was supposed to be some amazing
accomplishment.

And it was like it was a transparent
threads post in the meta display.

And the person was at In N Out Burger.

And so they're like sitting at In N Out,

they can see exactly one threads post in
the display because that's

how much room you have. It's hard to read
because the post

is transparent because it's trying to be
glasses.

And I'm like, this is what we want to do
with Meta Ray Bans display.

This is the singularity? Steven,

I was like

Stephen, humans will literally

shoot lasers into their eyeballs to not
have to wear glasses.

And Meta's like, what if we

Exactly.

shoot lasers into your eyeballs,

show you one thread spost, but you still
have to wear the glasses?

And I'm like, just pulling your phone out
of your pocket is a billion times better

experience than this

Yes.

wispy threads post in front of the in and
out dude.

I'm like, whatever, I guess. Okay.

So that's we'll see next year,

dub dub. And then finally, before we get
to personal tech,

Ford has partnered with Apple,

where Apple Maps is going to power the
navigation experience for Ford vehicles.

Joanna Stern was on the verge cast very
briefly last week talking about this.

This is interesting. Apple Maps and Ford
stuff.

Yes,

but I I the confusion seemed to be like,

so Ford is using CarPlay Ultra or
whatever.

That's not what this is. This is literally
a piece of software,

Apple Maps, that is going to be used in
Ford's electric vehicle platform.

So like in a Tesla, that's basically
Google Maps,

but they skinned it. Like Tesla has
skinned it their own way and whatever,

you can get these different maps from
TomTom or whoever.

Apple Maps is going to be providing the
one for Ford.

But that's like the

the maps software layer. So I think this
is cool,

but this is not an indication that like
we're any closer to CarPlay Ultra.

Correct. And I just it's funny to think
back at Apple Maps initial launch where

it was a complete disaster. And if you
just juxtapose that with actually

one of the biggest carb names are is now
using Apple Maps as like

the default navigation experience.

That's pretty wild. That's that's a pretty
wild turn.

They turn that thing around. All right.

I made an app. I made an app.

I was going should I show it? This is
personal tech,

This is personal tech, by the way,

just for everyone knows.

by the

this is personal tech.

I'm

gonna show my app. ~ I'm not gonna show
the name because I really like

Hold on. You should show

the name and I'm keeping it

your can I start roasting you now?

No, I'm just kidding. Can you show your
app?

Yeah, please go ahead, go ahead,

what? What? Yes.

Can you open your app and reminders next
to each other on the screen

and let our gu let our guests let our I'm
I'm the g let our

wait a minute. Let our let our guests you
are all guests on this episode,

thank you. Welcome.

friends I'm just picturing how this is
working on my screen right now.

~ let people see if they can tell which is
which.

Okay, alright, now hold on a second.

I'm gonna just reveal, I guess,

all the videos I have planned for the
next.

Okay, you can tell it's you can tell
what's different.

Yeah yeah.

Yeah, you can tell it's different.

Okay, here's I'll do it. I'll do it.

I guess you're gonna see the name,

but that's fine if you watch this.

So I wanted to make a let me explain
something.

Let me explain something first,

okay? Here's

Please.

the deal. Here's the deal, Jason.

I like Kanban boards,

Kanban, excuse me, for organizing my video
projects specifically.

It's the one thing I use it for.

And

also our episodes here in Notion.

But anyway, I like the Kanban view.

And the fastest Kanban experience,

Kanban, sorry. I don't know. Is that how
you say it?

You say Kanban? I don't

I say can ban, but I don't care.

know. People it's somebody yelled at
Anyway.

I the fastest Kanban experience has been
reminders.

And it is a good experience. ~ Reminders
is pretty robust.

It lets you. How can I do this?

I guess I will show.

I don't even

know how to get CamBam board view in
reminders.

It takes the place of your lists and you
have to enable it in the settings.

And so this is this is Kanban in
reminders.

And it's pretty good. You can move stuff
across columns,

you can name your columns, and it's it's
reminders.

And you have all the powers of the
reminders where you can tap the little I,

you can obviously set a date and time to
be reminded because it's reminders.

You can add tags, you can add one URL,

and you can even attach a photo.

To a reminder, a single image,

which is great. But one of the biggest,

like the number one reason why I started
this journey is because you can't have
rich

text or markdown notes in a reminder.

There is a notes field and you can like
put a bunch of text there,

but it's hard to read. It's not meant to
be a notes app.

It's not a project management app,

That's what it's not a project.

it's a reminder app.

It's

a reminder app. So it's like reminders is
not making it easy to put a bunch

of text there.

So my typical process was I'll have a bear
note over here and

my reminders over here. And I would refer
to the bare note for my outline

and for sponsor information. And then I
would look at my reminders board

for what project I was working on.

And I just had the thought, like,

can I make something that does both of
these things well and is still just as
fast?

If you're starting to type a comment right
now and you're gonna say notion or craft.

Those are great apps. We use Notion for
this podcast.

Those are not what I want to use for this
use case because they are heavy apps.

They're slow. They're Kraft is better than
Notion.

I'll give Kraft credit for that.

Kraft is much faster, but they're really
big apps for something that I just want.

I just do this one thing with Kanban
boards.

I just want it to be fast. So I started on
a journey five days ago to see

if I could make an app that did good
Kanban boards.

With all the stuff that I wanted.

And I started using Xcode with Claude
Agent and put it on Opus

and just started talking to it.

And I now have, I think, pretty much
finished app for what I want.

iOS, Mac, even Vision OS, just for the
heck of it.

I have no idea how that app works because
I haven't put on my Vision Pro to test it.

So somebody who's gonna get the test
flight,

let me what you think. Thank you.

All right, I'll do it. I got my Envision
Pro right here.

Thank you, Jason. Thank you,

Jason. He has access to the test flight.

And not only.

Is

it a can a Kanban board with tasks and you
can move them around?

But the actual notes editor is a markdown
with full markdown support text

editing where you can do bullets,

you can do links, and you can drag images,

PDFs, files into the notes section and it
will store them for you.

So I can have all the things I want for my
video in one place.

And that rich text note field,

which is like the best of bear,

combined with the

Project management style of reminders all
in one place.

I really I like this. And I can add like a
header image to a task so

it looks nice in the column view.

And I can like add tags to the things,

like all the normal productivity stuff
that you would want.

You can add the tags. I can add multiple
URLs associated with a task.

And you know what? I like my little app.

And you know, I'm still tweaking it.

I just gave it access to my shortcuts
community,

the people who are members there.

And if you're a member of this podcast,

I will put the test flight link down in
the show notes for members if

you want to try it out. But yeah,

I think ~ this is just I just made it for
me.

And then if anybody else wants to use it
for something,

you can use it too. That's it.

All right, Jason, hit me.

No, I mean I just you ha you explained I
think it's crazy

to use reminders for what you're using
reminders for because it's

not a project management app, it's a
reminders app.

It's like ~

Correct.

call the doctor, take out the trash,

whatever, like simple tasks. And what you
did was

you expanded that functionality so that it
better suits your needs.

So I think that that's great. That's
essentially what I tried to do with
Contextly,

Yeah. Right.

which is like

I love the notes app. I just love notes,

but I really wish

So

when I created a note, I could just sync
it to my calendar and then

it would be really nice if it could give
me a summary.

Anyway, so it's I think that that's a
really good use for it.

I think that well it was weird to me that
when I when I open it I see

a bunch of your video ideas.

I

took I st I took that out. I took you
don't see that.

I fixed it.

I mean maybe I haven't updated it then
because I definitely still see it.

No no no 'cause I

know I asked my shortcuts community,

I gave them the test flight link and they
were like sending me screenshots

in real time.

Well,

and was like, How did you even do that?

How did you even So I I wrote a I

Jason, I have no idea. That's why this is
called vibe coding.

I don't know how that stuff got in there.

made one I made a task on there called
Steven,

Can You See This? 'Cause I was like,

Maybe all of ours are sinking.

That would be the worst. That would be the
worst app ever.

Maybe Steven just shared he shared his
entire roadmap of videos with

That would be the worst. I think no.

a hundred people.

I will so here's what happened.

I s when in one of the first prompts I
gave the Claude Agent,

I gave it a screenshot of my reminders
Kanban view,

and it probably took some of those tasks
and put it in like the stock.

Hard coated them in.

yeah, but I've changed that since.

So if you download the test flight,

there's like a couple of stock projects
and tasks,

but they have nothing to do with my stuff.

So I don't actually have to clean up my
iPhone storage,

is what you're saying. It's okay that it's
in there.

No, it is not yes. Yeah. Yeah.

I can ignore it. Okay. No. No,

I think it's good. I think I I think that
you did the thing that is like

and I was the thought I had was and I
haven't tried to mess around with this

too much yet, just because I I only got
this like a day or two ago.

Yeah, yeah.

so I haven't tried to like create a space,

that kind of thing. But it it's very
simple.

It feels very much like a native app.

It that's great.

The only downside to it's very good that
it feels like a stock app.

I also generally don't love Apple's stock
design language that much.

but that's like not your fault.

Sure. Yeah.

Like I think it's fair

that you've stayed close to it.

But to me, what this isn't what this is
nice for is it's kind of like remember

the stickies app? It's

Yes, yes.

like we're just making a utility.

Use these

Yeah.

however you want.

Right.

What you're

basically saying is you just need a comb
board for something.

Here you go. Like it's not a reminders
app,

Right.

it's not a project management app.

It's literally just a combon board and you
it's like it's trello.

It's just it's basically Trello,

Yes.

but it's like a little nicer and you know,

whatever.

That's basically what it is. And I I I was
focused on the Kanban view.

And after I like first of maybe in the
bonus content,

we'll talk about the trials of App Store
Connect or whatever.

But like I made a bunch of builds and I
was just focused on the Kanban view.

And I did ask it to put a list view in
case somebody wants to flip over

to just look at it as a list. And I
realized how much was broken when you did
that.

And so I had to give a bunch of other
things with Claude and all this kind of
stuff.

Then we talked little bit on the pre-show
about bug fixing.

But yeah, it's basically just a and my
priority,

and this is what I told Claude Agent,

it has to be fast and it has to feel very
light.

Because when I add a shortcuts idea or
like if I have a video idea,

I want to be able to get in, put the idea
in,

get out, and be done. And that's also what
brings me to the other feature

I wanted to build it, which was shortcuts
actions.

So unlike a lot of those other apps.

Sometimes

shortcuts actions are there, sometimes
they're hard to like use.

And reminders, when you use the new
reminder action,

there's not a place to specify a column in
a reminders Kanban view.

You have to, you can only specify a list,

which is like the overarching list,

and then the boards are in there.

So my shortcuts action for my app,

you can specify the space, the project,

and the column if you want to put it in a
specific Kanban thing.

So I can even have a shortcut.

to put in ideas even faster and then I can
put the tag in and all that ~ as you go.

So that's why I wanted to do it.

And supposedly I I can't I don't want to
promise this and I'm not even sure

if it's gonna work. But supposedly Claude
wired it up for Siri AI where

you could ask it information and it would
pull it from the app and maybe even

add tasks using Siri AI. It doesn't work
in the test flight and I don't know

if the app has to be like officially on
the store for the Siri AI to work.

No but it depending there's like a
depending on if it's using private cloud
compute

or on device and if you are using the beta
version of X code,

which has access to those frameworks,

not okay,

I am using it, yeah.

and then the device obviously has to be
running the beta software to be able

to use that. But same similarly,

those features are all available in
contextly,

but I don't think until like the master
the release candidates are available

can you actually like test that stuff.

I mean I

So it just tells you like you can't find
anything,

right?

have ~

I have on device Apple intelligence
happening in it,

but it doesn't have the Siri connections
yet.

Okay, that's that's what it seemed like to
me.

'Cause like I asked Claude several times
'cause I tested it on my iPhone

and I was like, Claude, are you sure the
stuff is wired up?

And it was like, Yeah. It's not gonna
index it.

I just don't think it indexes I don't
think Siri is indexing test flight apps.

That's

the th that's what I feel like is is the
case.

So anyway, I ~ I made it for me.

And then if other people want to use it,

you want a nice fast Kanban with like rich
text note like robust notes as

a part of those things, yeah, it's gonna
be for you.

And so I don't know when we say I'm gonna
do

I think the next Mac Power users,

David is gonna grill me on it again and
we're gonna like go in depth about it.

But but yeah, that's gonna be the thing.

So anyway, that's thank you.

That's good. Good job. Nice job.

Thank you. It's fun and well let's get
let's get into the bonus episode

and we'll talk more about the the actual
development process.

So if you wanted to yeah, Claude.

wait, but I have to talk about Claude for
a second.

Well, you

actually you have to become a member and
you have to listen to the pre show.

I 'cause I said a lot of stuff about
Claude already.

That's the thing. Okay.

I'm just gonna say Fable

Five Very good. Hopefully it doesn't have
teeth.

It's really good. Hopefully it doesn't
have teeth.

Otherwise very good.

That's the deal. And ~ yes, we talked
about it in the pre show,

but ~ let's talk more about in the bonus
episode.

So here's what you

All right.

do to get the bonus episode, the pre show,

ad free, and my test flight link.

You can become a member. Click the link in
the show notes.

You can become a member still for twenty
five dollars a year or

two dollars and fifty cents a month.

You get access to all that stuff and my
test flight beta will be in

the member show notes. And you can not if
you're in Apple Podcasts,

sorry, I can't have different show notes
for subscribers there.

So

just email me if you're a Apple Podcast
subscriber and I'll figure out how

to get it to you. but for those who do it
through Memberful,

which is where the deal is, that's where
you can get it.

But leave us a five star rating and review
in Apple Podcast thirteen away from five

hundred. Help us get there. You can watch
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you can watch everywhere. Thanks for
joining us.

We'll catch you next time.