Primary Technology

He's a silent guardian, a watchful
protector,

John Ternus Welcome to Primary Technology,

the show about the tech news that matters.

Obviously, massive news this week.

Tim Cook officially stepping down as CEO
and John Ternus taking over

on September 1st. We're get into all of
that,

Tim Cook's legacy, what to look for in a
John Ternus led Apple and other news like

ChatGPT 2.0 images came out. Jim and I.

Howard Siri was teased actually at Google
Cloud.

Threads have a live chat event feature
coming out or something

and people are actually using Jason's app
out in the wild and we're gonna

get into that as well. This episode is
brought to you by Framer,

Granola, Claude and you the members who
support us directly.

Thank you for that. I'm one of your hosts,

Stephen Robles joined by developer Jason
Aten.

How's it going Jason?

Developers doing a lot of work there,

but I'm fine. Okay. Is that like common
law?

If I say three times, it's true.

If three times in a row. Yeah,

Okay. All right.

that's right. That's what happens.

No,

that's ~ Jason's app. I'll let you reveal
the name later.

It's exciting. I'm running it right now on
my Mac.

And we're to talk about it. And you have
people testing it,

awesome. do. I do have people testing it,

like out there in the wild. Yeah.

That's super fun. Okay. Last week,

yes.

the quote, the movie quote that I opened
the show with was,

sense injuries. The data could be called
pain.

Do you know what movie that's from?

See, you always make this face.

It's not even familiar to me.

All right, that one was Terminator 2.

Terminator 2. I was trying to find Robo.

Okay, it has probably

been 30 years since I've seen Terminator
2,

just to be honest.

I

was like, it hasn't come out 30.

wow. Yeah, it has come out. Definitely
more than definitely more than 30 years.

I don't know when it came out,

it's been that long since I've seen it.

And I kind of tweaked today's quote.

He's a silent guardian, a watchful
protector.

I didn't say the last part of that phrase
because it would give it away.

I don't know.

The last part of the quote is a dark
night,

which is the name of the movie.

Oh, he's the hero that Gotham needs but
doesn't deserve.

Not that Gotham deserves the knees or
something,

Blah blah blah. Yeah.

which I'm not saying that's John Ternus
but he is a silent guardian

of watchful protection.

Maybe it is

that that part of the cool. I would have
for sure known it.

That's what I'm saying, that's what I'm
saying.

yeah. All right, a couple five star
reviews before we get into all

the cook turn this news. Jim Manist at
1000 from the USA.

He asked if the review gets to me faster
with my seven gigabit download speeds.

Yes, it does. I actually got the review
immediately and battery percentage

on phone dominant pocket front home screen
dots.

dominant pocket front home screen dots

Dominantfroggit, ~

God, sorry. I was like, yeah, I had a
stroke there.

Cosion27 from the USA, he corrected his
review from four to five stars when

I added background music and then I forgot
to add it in last week's episode.

But I'll remember this one, so thanks for
that.

We're his second favorite tech podcast
outside of Waveform,

which ~ I'm down for that. If we're your
second favorite tech podcast,

I mean, we prefer to be the favorite.

We wanna win a Webby,

Yeah, I mean, second favorite nothing wins
a Webby my goodness.

But we have to figure out how to

but you have to pay like $500 to enter.

say that fast. We want to win a Webby we
want to win a Webby.

We know how to say it.

We just have to pay $500 just to enter or
something.

you know, when I worked at Riverside,

I would always look into like the podcast
awards and be like,

how do I enter my podcast to be in the
awards?

And it's always like, well, you to enter,

fill out this 20 page application and pay
$750.

I'm like, oh, okay, I see what you guys
do.

Yeah, every awards. Yeah, I can't say
anymore because I work for a company

Yeah, yeah, we know.

that has an award program, so I should
just stop.

See,

this is like the... Listen, ladies and
gentlemen,

anytime you travel, if you ever read one
of those magazines where

it talks about like the top 10 places to
eat in Venice or whatever,

it's all sponsored. It's all sponsored
content.

Yeah, the

top 10 places that gave us $1,000.

That's the thing. People knock on creators
and sponsorship

and disclosures and there's so many
industries where it's

all sponsorship and there's no
disclosures.

Travel industry being one of the most
heinous.

But anyway, this podcast will not pay to
get an award.

If we get an award, we probably won't
because we're not paying to be in.

We

won't get an award, but if we do,

it won't be because we paid. It'll be
because someone made a mistake.

That's right.

The podcast 728 from the USA he I
corrected that I messaged the person

on social media with they're like I can't
see the transcript anymore because

we added video on Apple podcast Yes,

it's a total Apple thing. I'd actually did
an entire video on the best podcast apps

and talked about all these distinctions
I'll link that video in the show notes,

but he still gave us five stars and I
appreciate that and Shahab from Canada
said

horizontal tabs and That's at the top
right?

That's at the top. That's normal.

Yeah, okay.

Okay. That's the way it was intended.

Yeah, that's right. Okay

and also Apple TV. Sorry, I was just
poking on there.

It's fine. I also use horizontal tabs
across the top in one profile.

Nah, I know, know.

I just use the vertical tabs in a
different one.

Yeah,

All right. And last couple of things.

I launched another podcast last week.

I kind of soft launched it and I just told
people.

But I just I wanted to start another
thing.

I don't know why. I had some do I got a
good domain and I was like,

no, that wasn't the domain was the first
thing I bought.

I mean, that is a good domain.

But I did have the idea first.

It is a good domain. Top five dot tech is
the domain which those could.

But no, I wanted a reason to write a
regular newsletter.

And then I was like, I should make this
like an audio podcast too.

And then I was like, well, I should just
do a video series.

And so it's all the things. You can either
watch this,

listen to this or read it. And yeah,

every Friday, I'm just gonna share five
things,

something to read, watch, listen to,

download and something deep about tech.

I already know what I'm gonna be talking
about tomorrow.

But yeah, if you wanna hear me again,

it's a five minute show. Like it's just,

if you wanna hear me again.

If you want to hear me again.

~ No, but it's...

I'm trying to pick the five interesting
things not just like

new things like tomorrow I'm gonna be
talking about something like

an older podcast episode But not something
that you might have heard of

so anyway if you want to sign up for that
newsletter or get it as a podcast

or watch it as a video it'll all it'll be
everywhere and then also Will canard

we talked about hey there might be a
industry for people who check vibe coding
apps

and Yeah, apparently it's an industry
already will can art send me a link

he has a blog which will link in the show
notes where he talked about

and how to optimize your vibe coded
projects and what to watch for.

And yeah, it was a great article,

but also apparently this is an industry
that is literally being created

in real time. And that's pretty wild.

Yeah,

because there are a lot of people who work
at companies that are just going

to start using cloud code and they're
going to not have a job.

And this is actually a great thing for
them to do.

So yeah, that's happening. So it was
great.

We'll link that in the show notes as well.

Well, I don't know if there was really any
news this week.

Just kidding. I want it to be sarcastic at
least once.

So it is official. Tim Cook stepping down
as CEO as of September 1st.

John Ternus to become CEO. Tim Cook will
move to the chairman of

the board of directors of Apple.

Johnny Soruji will be elevated to a
position of his chief.

hardware officer, that's right,

Hardware Officer again.

chief hardware officer. And every hot take
has been said.

And so what do you call a hot take that's
well thought out,

it's deep, it's not hot, but it's not
cold.

It's a, I don't know, a dish best served
hot take.

It's a meh, thank you.

A marinated take.

This is, we have.

I don't know.

It's been sitting on the counter for a
couple days in its juices.

That's right,

but I feel like, you know, everybody
recorded emergency podcast.

We did not. And, you know, a lot of people
I think have been thinking about this

for a long time. And we've talked about
Apple CEO and Tim Cook,

what is a product CEO. But the last few
days,

I've been thinking about it a lot.

And I don't know, I wanted to talk about
it several different ways.

You know, I want to talk about Tim Cook
and a little bit of his legacy

and how it's kind of being seen and
shaped.

Now that he is officially stepping down a
ceo I did a video about john Ternus

and kind of his history at apple Which the
video is doing pretty well,

which is nice, but I learned some things
about john Ternus.

I did not know before and I'm excited i'm
optimistic about him being ceo

And so i'll link my video in the show
notes and jason has a couple articles.

We're going to get to as well and then
german Can I just say bloomberg?

Bloomberg I was paying for bloomberg some
amount

But apparently it wasn't enough because I
couldn't read some of it.

I couldn't read some of week. They German
was literally Bloomberg

Or like, give us more money, please.

You ran out of credits.

was literally like, hey, give us more
money.

And I was like, for real? Like,

do we really have to do this? But German
has been writing a ton

and he actually posted a photo.

So after the announcement, there was an
internal Apple town hall

and German literally posted a photo that
someone took inside the town hall.

of Tim Cook and John Turness on stage
addressing the Apple staff.

And I was like, bro, I feel like some AI
or detective,

whatever, can like, what angle is this
photo taken at what zoom level?

And they could find out like what person
inside Apple is sending German photos

of their town hall that this felt like,

I don't know, another level in like the
leak culture.

I don't know. So clearly someone inside
Apple,

so much so that they were at this town
hall.

Talking about the transition, sent German
a photo.

That seems crazy. That seems crazy to me.

Yeah, it does kind of seem crazy,

Yeah, I don't know. Please,

you're right. Before we get into it,

I have a question.

yeah.

Where were you when you found out?

And how did you find out?

I think... was it you texted me?

My text

message? Okay, I was just curious.

Yeah, you texted me. It was Monday at 4 45
p.m.

And you texted me the Apple Newsroom
article with the word,

holy and nothing else. And I was literally

in the middle of something.

I forget what it was. And I was like,

I'm OK, this is huge. I need to finish
what I'm doing because the next

two days are just this like whatever it
is,

it is this.

And I also thought like, I want to make a
video about this.

I don't want to do a hot take video.

I'm not going to try and make a five
minute video right now.

And so I finished what I was doing.

I looked at your text. I was like,

okay, it's happening. no,

This is not a drill.

this is not a drill. And I thought,

let me make a short slash reel slash
TikTok of just saying the thing.

So I did that. And then I spent Monday
evening doing some research.

We're to talk about that later.

and made the video just about John Ternus
and went from there.

But it was you. How did you did you get
the notification from the Apple Newsroom?

So

no, I've never been more angry in my life.

No, that's not true. But I was driving and
my editor texted me and I

yeah.

was driving an hour to a soccer game,

which I love going to our kids to soccer
games,

but our daughter had a high school soccer
game.

The timing.

And I didn't even have my backpack with me
because I'm going to a soccer game.

Like, like, I don't take my computer with
me to soccer games,

Fair. That's fair.

especially like, so I'm driving,

I got the text message.

I texted you at 445. I had just gotten the
text message.

I was like just starting my trip for a
fleeting second.

Mmm.

I was like, do I just go back home?

And I'm like, no, I'm going to the soccer
game.

So I ended up writing the article on my
phone when I got there,

Yeah.

like in the 30 minutes of the warm up,

I listened. I listened to the verge cast
when I like the live one because

This is like the Neelay Patel story,

writing about St. Louis.

Live, Yeah.

it had just wrapped up. And so I was I
didn't listen to a live.

I listened to the replay like shortly
after that,

but the YouTube stream.

and wrote the first article which was
about Tim Cook keeping his most important

job and then later that night I got home
and I wrote but I did text my wife

I'm like listen hon Tim Cook just retired
or he just knows he's retiring when

I get home from this game I'm gonna have
to work gotta work so

I'm going to be locked, locked down,

locked down.

Do you remember where you were when you
learned that Steve Jobs had passed?

I don't exactly remember where I was,

but I do remember it. And I viscerally
remember the like the

the person who posted the Apple logo with
the Tim with Steve Jobs profile.

Yeah, Steve. Yeah. Yeah,

And I remember their home page.

I don't remember where I was, but I do.

yeah, yeah.

I will always remember where I was when I
found out Tim Cook

was retiring because it's I know people
think this is crazy,

but like honestly, a change in CEO at a
company like Apple.

who has only had eight of them,

well, will have eight with Ternus and only
three that anybody knows about.

Right? And it is basically the biggest
business news

Correct. That. That point is important.

and very big tech news at every level of
the stack.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm like, and I'm driving in a car.

That

is the perfect storm of situations.

I think I

got a tweet to you or a text to you and I
posted it on threads and that,

and then I had to keep driving.

Right, was it.

I still remember where I was when I heard
about Steve Jobs passing.

And at the highest level, Tim Cook was
named,

I think it was either interim CEO or full
CEO before he passed.

He was named CEO in August and he passed
in October.

and Steve

passed in October. But it was clear that
when Tim Cook was appointed CEO,

it was because of Steve Jobs' health.

And there was a bunch of news in the years
leading up to him passing about

Yes.

his waffling out. And if you read the
Apple 50 Years David Pogue book,

he talks about internally and those close
to Steve,

they knew a lot was going on and they did
not reveal a lot of it to

the public in the...

years leading up to his death.

He'd been sick for seven years.

He missed it for a long time, And so I
think,

and feel, like this transition just at the
highest level feels

so different because that transition was
obviously clouded by this CEO,

Steve Jobs, did not leave on his own
accord.

Steve Jobs had to leave because he was
literally about to die.

that just, the first part of Tim Cook's
legacy that...

I think is the most positive and we should
all take notice.

Like he took over from that, not from a
CEO voluntarily stepping down

and handing the reins to him. While Jobs
did hand him the reins,

it was out of necessity. And while Steve
Jobs obviously chose the right

guy because he has grown Apple
tremendously and however you feel about

Tim Cook's in the services revenue and the
little things like he did his job.

And one of the things in a lot of
leadership situations in businesses

when there's a beloved leader or CEO and
they have been loved and the CEO

for a long time, which Steve Jobs was
before he died,

and he released all the iconic products
like the iPod,

the iPhone, the iPad, to take over as the
leadership role from that

is typically untenable. And a lot of times
in business situations,

like it just doesn't work. Like whoever's
CEO after that will

be short-lived and will be seen as a
failure and then there'll be a

another CEO that might last a little
longer.

The fact that Tim Cook was able to take
over and has been CEO for 15 years

is pretty astonishing. like,

whether he filled the shoes, I don't know
if that's the right analogy,

but he did his job, which was to take over
as CEO of Apple,

make it successful, grow it, and then hand
it off to the next person

to innovate for the next 15 years.

He did that. Does that, I mean,

Yeah, yeah, Tim Cook

he did that.

is easily, I don't think you can make the
argument,

maybe, maybe Sachin Adela, but Tim Cook is
easily the most successful

CEO of all time. Like now,

he did bet some of that success is owed to
Steve Jobs because

100%.

the most successful product in history is
the iPhone and Tim Cook reaped most

of the benefit of that, right?

Apple became the most valuable company in
the world shortly after Tim Cook took over

as CEO. And it has mostly been the most
valuable company in the world during

the entire his entire time. There have
been like right now it's like third.

It was the first company to 1 trillion.

It was the first company to 3 trillion.

Like it is I can remember thinking like
that is incontinent to think that where

are these we're done. The time is over.

This is it.

because once you've reached a trillion,

That's it.

it was unfathomable that companies would
reach a $4 trillion market cap.

And there's like three of them now that
maybe four,

Right. Right.

I don't even know where Google is right
now.

So Tim Cook is without question the most
successful CEO I think of all time.

Like I don't know who you would say is
more successful just in terms of

all of the ways you would measure it.

And I just wanna be clear, there are a lot
of people who I've heard argue,

Okay, sure. If you go by Tim Cook's
standard of the numbers.

Well, first of all, like you're the CEO of
a public company,

that is the measurement. Like just to be
clear,

that is how you define success.

But also the fact that he just didn't
break anything.

I think you can, other than maybe some
developer relations,

but I think he had the wherewithal,

and this might've been his biggest
strength.

He had the wherewithal to recognize what
had been set up before him.

And he had the wherewithal to follow his
strengths and some of that some

of his weaknesses caused some interesting
interim inter interstitial problems,

you know, with like we get the butterfly
keyboard,

red.

whatever. But I don't I think if you had
replaced Steve Jobs with a product guy,

Apple would be basically not a thing we
think about much.

I think, well, they still had the iPhone.

I think they would not have been
successful and may have not have...

Like, let me say this. So the timing was
interesting because this

has long been rumored. German has been
talking about it for like the last year.

I think the Financial Times or the
Information,

they predicted it would happen earlier.

And, you we even thought maybe after
DubDub,

they'll make the announcement or whatever.

And so it does feel like...

maybe a little sooner than a lot of people
expected.

during the town hall, and these are
remarks that were reported to Gurman,

I'm gonna put the nine to five Mac article
in the show notes so

you can actually read it. But he said that
Tim Cook knew it was the right time

to step down because three things had to
be true.

Apple's product roadmap needed to be
incredible.

Okay, we don't know what that is,

but I guess it's incredible. Right?

Vision Pro 3.

Apple's financials needed to be going,

doing great, check.

And turn this had to be ready for the role
again Tim Cook would know that most

of all and so it seems like those three
Plus being 65 years

old retirement age like it was he made a
decision like it was time time

to go and obviously this has been
Extremely calculated probably over

the last five to ten years like this
transition good

Well, I was gonna say and Ben Thompson
makes a good point.

That was not a part of that. But I think
is worth mentioning,

which is that Apple is at a point where it
has to make decisions today that will

affect the business in 10 or 12 years.

So Tim Cook should not be the person
making those decisions.

Once you reach a point in your tenure
where the critical strategic decisions
that

have to be made are clearly going to play
out after you're gone,

you shouldn't be the person making those
decisions.

That's a good point.

you it's

it's in so when it comes to things like
AI,

when it comes to how that whether Apple is
going to decide to invest

in building foundation models,

or if it's just going to be the device
where everybody runs out like

all of those things. That is a critical
piece of this that I think

is worth mentioning that Tim Cook probably
recognized that Apple is heading into

a direction where he will not be able to
see it through.

And so

he in he probably has some firsthand
experience.

Steve Jobs set things in motion that
obviously Steve Jobs wasn't able

to see through. And Tim Cook had the first
hand experience of being

the person who had to simply figure out
what did he mean by this?

Like, I guess we're doing this thing.

So

Right.

And one thing, so about Tim Cook's legacy,

when Steve Jobs was CEO of Apple in the
years of the iPhone and the iPad,

iPod, he was the nucleus of Apple.

And it felt like Apple was synonymous with
Steve Jobs.

Like it was almost one in the same,

like the Venn diagram. You just thought of
them together.

And you saw that in every keynote.

mean, Steve Jobs was the one on stage for
80 to 90 % of every keynote.

demoing the products, talking about the
products,

Steve Jobs was Apple. And it's,

I feel like I hope they get back to
in-person events as a side note,

maybe with John Turnis now in the CEO
seat.

And while there were big names that you
were familiar with in the Steve Jobs era,

like you saw Johnny Ive in the videos
where he was in the white room

and you saw Scott Forstall on stage
talking about software,

Bob Mansfield talking about hardware,

and obviously Phil Schiller was there.

They all felt peripheral.

And I do feel like one of the benefits of
Tim Cook not being

the charismatic leader that Steve Jobs was
is that it has allowed other names

and faces to bubble up to associate with
Apple as a brand,

which I think is positive. Like when one
company hinges on a singular person,

that's why it felt like such a huge deal
when Steve Jobs died.

It was like, this might be it.

Like who else, who else can do it?

But over the last 15 years,

Since Tim Cook is not the guy to be the
one on stage demoing every product

and doing it, now we know like,

~ Craig Federighi. Like, I was not as
familiar with Craig Federighi before Tim
Cook.

He was there doing stuff. But now he's
like a character,

a face of Apple. Same with Greg Joswiak.

Like, people post about him on social
media and take pictures with him.

And we have Johnny Srouji. It's like,

you know, I just, I knew Bob Mansfield's
name,

but I wouldn't even be able to tell you
what he did or whatever.

But like, we now see this like,

team of people and every keynote that's
been pre-recorded,

like you see all these faces and names
associated with the products,

and I think it's positive that you can now
see all the people that

are making these incredible products and
who make up Apple,

not just the CEO. And now, I think we're
getting a CEO that is closer

to the product person of Steve Jobs,

and hopefully we do see on stage more
often,

maybe even in in-person events.

and we have this amazing team around him.

So that's one of the things I feel like
that makes me optimistic.

Now, while Tim Cook might have not had the
charisma to be that onstage guy,

but he had the business mindset,

now we do have someone that could probably
be the onstage guy and has been.

When I made my John Turnis video,

he was the one that introduced the Apple
Silicon transition.

He was the one that introduced the Mac
Studio and Studio Display.

He was the last person to introduce the
Mac Pro.

John Turnis has been the guy in all these
keynotes talking about stuff.

And I don't know, I'm excited to see him
be that guy.

Why, I don't want to go too far down this,

because there's a lot of things to talk
about.

But that has always been a weird thing.

Yeah.

Steve Jobs was singular. He's just Steve
Jobs.

Correct.

So it made sense that he was the person
who was on stage.

I don't know why people think that it has
to be the CEO.

Why were people disappointed that Tim Cook
wasn't that guy when there were other

people? I hope we still get to see Craig
Federighi.

Hmm. yeah, absolutely. Right.

I hope we still get to see John.

I don't care if we see any more or less of
John Ternus.

I think it's because when you know the
person leading

I don't know why that matters.

the company cares so deeply about the
products and how customers will

use them that they are talking about it in
the announcement keynote,

I feel like there's a ~ weird sense of
trust that is developed in the background.

You're like, this person is leading the
company and this person

is introducing this product and this
person knows how I'm gonna use the
product.

and is literally showing me what I'm gonna
do with this product.

Okay, and they're leading the company,

which means like the next few years,

the next thing they ask, I feel like
there's some kind of maybe even
subconscious

thread that goes along with that.

~ So maybe that? I don't know.

I just think that

is an arbitrary requirement that you're
good at talking publicly.

I agree with the other parts. I actually
think I would push back.

for sure.

Tim Cook may not be someone who was like a
product designer.

I don't know that there was anyone at
Apple who cared more about

the experience that people had with
products.

I don't know that he knew how to
articulate that necessarily.

True. Right, that's fair. Right.

I don't know. But I think he like watching
that Wall Street Journal with

I think Ben Collins like he wasn't great
at talking about them.

I think he sincerely cares that people be
delighted by the products.

And I think it's fine that he also not be
really great at communicating

it because he was smart enough to put
people up that is I actually think that's

a more important quality than talks good
on camera.

Hmm.

And so going to be on stage all the time.

Steve jobs did that. But again,

Steve jobs and Steve jobs, people give him
all the credit as being a product guy.

Steve jobs is product sense was sort of a
yes,

like a feel.

he wasn't the one who was even the
original like,

Yeah, was intuition.

I mean, I wasn't around when they made the
Apple one but like he didn't make that

thing was did right like

No, no,

but he had the intuition of, and again,

Pogue uses this example a lot,

the iPod Mini was selling like crazy,

the most popular iPod yet. And when Steve
Jobs,

when they introduced the Nano,

they killed the Mini, even though it was
their best-selling product.

And everybody around him said,

this is dumb to cancel the Mini for this
product that is not proven.

But Steve Jobs was right, and the Nano
sold even more,

the iPod Nano.

And so I feel like that intuition,

whatever it is, while he didn't make the
product with his hands,

he knew how people would respond to the
products.

And it feels like Turnus has that air
about him.

And obviously, Tim Cook trusted the people
around him and he did

put good people around him to make good
products.

I mean, that's why Turnus is here.

know, like Turnus was responsible.

That's one of the things I said in my
video.

Turnus was responsible for like the entire
iPad lineup all the way up

to like the new one and the entire AirPods
lineup.

And in recent years, the iPhone,

like he has been leading those teams.

But actually, Tim Cook, I want to go to
your article,

because if you read anything, you know,

the newsroom article with the announcement
is fine,

you know, it's interesting. The community
letter from Tim,

which we were talking about him
articulating about products and like,

I feel like this letter from Tim is one of
the best things,

the best communications he's ever given.

And it's like, it's a shame that it's on
his way out,

because it feels like the most
transparent.

And I believe it. I believe that.

feel like it's earnest. And in this
letter,

he talks about how every morning he reads
emails from Apple users around the world.

And he feels like he feels that he feels
the connection

to them and the importance of what they
are doing and how it affects people.

And you said it more eloquently.

And so I'll put your article in the show
notes.

This is the ink.com. I'll put the Apple
Newsroom article.

You talk about the farewell letter,

but you have a line in this article.

I just want to point out because I think
it's really good and I think

it does relate to leadership of all kinds.

says you have to you say Jason Aitin says
quote you have to admit that whatever

system you built to protect your time
could also be filtering out

the exact signal you need. Otherwise you
end up slowly disconnected from

the business. built a career on refusing
to be disconnected from

the people sending those emails.

And I think that's really salient point
because leaders and people who have

are very time constrained because they're
the CEO or whatever,

they will limit or eliminate some of that
connection.

Like I'm not going to read emails from
just random people

who put timcookatapple.com in the two
field,

but he didn't. So yeah, you said it more
eloquently.

Yeah,

well, and I think we knew this is actually
I'm glad he put it.

I'm glad he wrote the letter. I agree.

It's one of the best pieces of
communication from Tim Cook.

But I think that this is some people are
better writers and talkers.

It's fine. right. Probably some people
think that I'm one of them.

That's me. Yeah.

That's fine. But I think that it was an
important thing.

You

And he has actually talked about this
before.

And this is why we see those Apple Watch
commercials at the beginning of.

of a keynote or whatever, not commercials,

films at the beginning of keynotes is
because of this sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And he made a point of, of not just
allowing them to show up in his inbox,

but internalizing those things.

And we can see that like, features and
decisions and the way that Apple

has talked about it have come from some of
these emails.

And I do think that staying closely
connected to your,

your customers is extremely important,

especially for someone like Tim Cook.

who maybe doesn't have that innate sense
of like,

and I don't know that Tim Cook has less of
an innate sense than Steve Jobs.

I think Steve Jobs was just far more
confident in his opinion,

that his opinion about a thing was right.

Sure.

And so everyone just did it. And it turns
out that most of us who like Apple agreed

with that opinion most of the time,

right?

Right.

one of the distinctions that German talks
about in one of his Bloomberg articles,

which yes, I paid $35 this month so I
could read all these articles because

I wasn't paying enough before.

People inside Apple described Tim Cook in
meetings where there was

a decision to make or they were at an end
pass on trying to decide something.

Tim Cook would defer. He would ask the
people around the table,

what do you think about this? What should
we do about this?

And

the similar people would say when John
Ternus is in a meeting,

he will be much more decisive.

And he will say, this is like,

let's do this and go from there.

And I guess if you, if you want to take
any trait and say,

this is closer to Steve Jobs than that,

that probably feels like the thing that
they will do the most of that makes them

more like jobs. When Tim Cook defers to
others,

which is a good quality, like I do think
collaboration and delegation.

are great qualities of a leader.

And when it's not your strength,

you're a better leader if you delegate
those questions than if you try

to make the decisions yourself and you
make poor decisions,

you know, if you don't have that.

So he was probably correct in asking the
room.

He put great people around him and they
made the decisions.

But we're getting a new CEO, John Ternus,

who has been at Apple for 25 years,

has literally built and led the teams that
built the iconic products that

are there today.

of all the things that people say,

like, the software is one thing about the
Apple devices today,

and you could say what you want about iOS
26,

a liquid glass, or whatever, but the
hardware is always universally agreed

to be the best. The new M5,

the new MacBook Pros, the iPhone 17 Pro,

everything is incredible. And that was
Ternus.

That's been Ternus for the last however
many years.

He's led the hardware teams for that.

And so having someone that is closer to
the Steve Jobs CEO who will

be decisive and here's the thing,

sometimes you make a wrong decision and
we're gonna get in a minute about what

Tim Cook has said his failures have been.

When you are that decisive, you do run the
risk of making a mistake

and something happening like the iPhone 4
antenna gate or whatever.

And you might have to backtrack like what
Steve Jobs gave out free bumpers

or whatever. But I do think that kind of

decisiveness and forward motion lends
itself

to more innovation than not. And so that
is why guess I'm hopeful that John Turner

is now being the CEO for however many
years.

Some things might break or not might not
be great,

but I think we'll see more innovation
because there's going to be

a decisiveness to say, yes, let's do that.

Like, let's do the folding iPhone.

Who knows if anybody wants this,

but let's do it. Let's do the AR glasses.

Let's push it.

And you know, let's get it out there and
let's see.

I feel like Steve Jobs was a bit like
Steve Jobs kind of had the confidence

to say like, we're going to put this out
there because I know

the customers were wanted. I don't know if
John Turnis is that confident.

You know, I don't know if he has that kind
of Steve Jobs in like,

I know people like we tell what people
what they want.

You know, that's literally what Steve Jobs
would say that we want.

You know, we tell them what they want.

You have to show them what they want.

And maybe Turnis has that too.

But that is one of the reasons why I'm
optimistic about the innovation

at Apple going forward. I think Turnis
will bring that with the decisiveness,

with the direction.

Yeah, I just hope they don't become
Samsung.

Right? Like you just described.

No, they wouldn't know.

Well, you just described. Let's just put
the stuff out there.

I actually think that Apple's biggest
strength has been that they are very,

very conservative about what they're
willing to put out there.

Yes, yes.

Sometimes maybe to their detriment,

sometimes maybe but like they put the
vision pro out there.

Not exactly a resounding success.

Incredible piece of hardware. Incredible
software.

Right. Right, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Right.

Not a thing that anyone cares about except
for me.

I still use it every day but

I just think that like, don't know.

I think Steve Jobs, when he says we told
people what they want,

he doesn't mean you will like this because
we told you to what he means

is he could see around the corner.

He knew how people would experience
something and how they would feel about

right.

it before they did because it was new to
them and they didn't have it.

So when he says he would tell people what
they should think or what they should

like, what he just means is like he could
see it before people

who had never experienced it could.

And so they moved in that direction and
they told people they didn't just

ask you because what he knew is that if
you just ask people what they want,

it's what if the Henry Ford we just want
faster horses like right?

We we don't want the automobile.

We just want faster horses. I guess.

But you've never seen an automobile.

promise you it's better. Like you have to
just trust us on it.

So I don't know. First of all,

I'm being contrarian to some extent.

think Turner's will be a great CEO.

I think he was the obvious choice.

I think that that's great. I think
expectations are way too high on

him and people are pinning all of the
things that they thought were

Hmm.

Deficits of Tim Cook as hopes on John
Ternus and I don't think that that's fair

and I think it sets him up for a real bad
situation Because John Ternus

That's fair, yeah.

has worked with Tim Cook for 15 years.

He calls him his mentor I don't think
we're gonna see a dramatically different,

Reverend.

you know, and John Ternus was not a
product designer He's a hardware engineer.

No.

He was the guy who figured out huh?

The MacBook Air is gonna be this then how
does it all work together?

What where do we source the stuff from he
wasn't the

I mean and also like he was the butterfly
keyboard guy

That's a point.

And he was the one

who thought the MacBook Pro should only
have USB-C ports.

I'm pretty sure he was the one that
engineered that,

Was that him or Johnny Ive?

But yeah,

but Johnny Ive was still there calling a
lot of shots.

So that's my point is like that those are
product design decisions.

So

Right. I'm not like, obviously,

Ternus is Apple DNA through and through.

He's been there for 25 years. of like Tim
Cook for 15 years.

I don't think he's going to be a radical
change,

to be clear. But I think the needle will
move.

I don't know how much it will move,

but I think it will move slightly away
from hyper conservative,

maybe, to like release innovation,

like artificial intelligence, I think is
the clear example.

Apple has been

way on the conservative side and now have
fallen behind because of it.

Maybe, and this is just an assumption,

but maybe with someone like Ternus at the
helm,

they will move slightly faster in these
new areas and might make

for more innovation going forward.

It's a hope. I'm not saying, listen,

their product roadmap, like Tim Cook
literally said in that town hall,

our product roadmap has to be incredible.

So it makes it clear the roadmap is set
for at least some time.

You know what I mean?

We probably won't know the effect Ternus
has had on the products for

two to three years. listen, iPhone 18,

that's in the can. Like, that's done.

Well, but it's also Ternus. He just wasn't
CEO.

It is a still tiller. Right, right,

That's what I'm saying. All the products
they're going to set out in

right, right, right, right. And it just
turned us.

the next couple years, that was all Ternus
anyway.

Right, but things like the AI,

like I think about the interview that
Joanna Stern did with Craig Joswek

and Craig Ferrigi, like I'm sure the two
of them and Tim Cook talk a

lot about AI and they were like,

no one wants a chat app. And now all the
rumors are that the next voice assistant

on the iPhone, Kamaios 27, will be a chat
app.

And so something is happening there where
they are shifting to maybe just accepting

the world and what people actually want,

but I'm hopeful that Ternus has more of
that bent.

Not that it's a-

180 turn but just a slight bent toward
like all right,

let's move a little faster, you know,

and he's young he's 51 He's the age Tim
Cook was when Tim Cook became CEO and so,

you know, we have another 10 10 15 years

Yeah, again, I think it was the right
decision.

I am optimistic. I just want us to be
careful that we don't put all of

our hopes on John Ternus because because
first of all,

Hopes and dreams. No, no, no.

I mean, you shouldn't put your hopes and
dreams and Steve Jobs either.

But John Ternus is still not Steve Jobs.

Right. And John Ternus is coming out of
the Steve Jobs era and

the Tim Cook era. And he will define the
era that comes after very differently.

I think he set up for success much better
than like Bob Chapek was it.

Hmm.

Disney, right, which we're gonna talk
about Tim Cook sticking around a little
bit.

But I but I think, like, I don't think
we're gonna have that kind of a situation.

Yes.

I think he's in a better situation than
than that.

And I think it's because Tim Cook's main
priority,

I think john gruber said it really well,

Tim Cook's main priority was just Apple,

like, just you know, if Tim, if Steve Jobs
is greatest product was Apple,

Right, right.

the company, Tim Cook did the best job
anyone could have done of just letting
that

flourish, right? And we'll see maybe the
products within Apple will flourish more

Yeah.

under John Ternus. And I think that that's
good to have somebody who

has that kind of a sense. But people are
like,

well, they're gonna bring back in person
keynotes now because John Ternus

is I'm like, I don't know that that makes
the thing.

Well, I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah.

But interestingly, when the MacBook Neo,

there was an event in New York,

and there was one person on stage doing
stuff live,

and it was John Ternus talking about the
MacBook Neo.

And there's some interesting photos.

After that event in the press area,

people who were there, there's like
pictures of John Ternus by himself
standing

by the MacBook Neo, and John Gruber
pointed out like,

that's the last time that will ever
happen.

Because now whenever John Ternus is in
room,

there's gonna be a swarm of people.

And I think the one word I feel like to
describe Tim Cook's era,

he was the best steward Apple could have
hoped for.

He stewarded the company, made it what it
was today.

Absolutely.

And I think John Ternus will continue to
steward it and,

and something. I think there will be
something else there.

Yeah. Well,

the reason that's such a good word is
Stuart means to manage something that
belongs

to someone else. No, really, that's what
it means.

That's fair. That is fair.

And Tim Cook, in two ways did that he
managed something that in his mind,

I think still belonged to Steve Jobs and
belong to shareholders.

Yeah. Right, right,

No, like for real, like I mean that
sincerely,

right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think Tim Cook was the single best at
that.

And john Stuart, I think john Stuart.

John Ternus.

John Turnis

is a steward. think what he will do is
continue to steward the company

in a very different way in some ways.

Yeah, yeah.

Like he's going to be managing something
that is much bigger than him.

Right. He came up in a very different way
at Apple.

Right, right.

And I think it'll be, I think,

but I don't think like no one should
expect Apple to have the same kind

of exponential growth over the next 15
years than it did today.

Well, I don't think that would even be
possible just from a practical,

Just from math.

from math, the amount of people in the
world and the products that actually

are ubiquitous, namely the phone.

I mean, AI is taking all of our jobs and
we're all going to have universal basic

I don't know.

income anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Well, on that note, I do want to talk
about Tim Cook,

~ what he's staying on to do, the failures
that he admitted to,

and Johnny Saruji's being around.

I'm glad he's sticking around.

I'm glad they elevated him to do that.

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All I want to talk about your second
article,

which Tim Cook, he's moving into the
chairman of the board at Apple.

So he's still going to be around.

He's still going to be doing things.

And mostly this line, Cook will assist
with certain aspects of the company,

including engaging with policymakers
around the world.

And this was one of the reasons why a lot
of journalists and people

in the tech space, we were like,

maybe Tim Cook's not going to leave until
the administration changes because

Tim Cook has been, you know, heavily
involved with doing things.

and kind of smoothing things over with
tariffs or whatever so maybe

he won't leave well. Now he can continue
to do those same things but doesn't have

to be CEO. He can do that as chairman of
the

Yeah, I think Neelay Patel said it best on
the first cast where

he talked about like, you just can't
introduce the current president to a new
guy.

You just he's not going to learn a new guy
at this point.

That's the thing.

He just it's going to have to still be
Tim.

And I do think like it is his most
important job.

It's just gotta be Tim.

I don't know that he wants to do this,

but I think what it does is set up John
Ternus for the best amount of success.

I imagine that Tim Cook is going to show
up at board meetings and then

go talk to policy people. And I don't
think you'll see him a ton

at Cooper in Cupertino for a while to give
John Ternus as much runway as

he can in as much opportunity to put his
own impression on it.

And then when it's kind of like it's it's
kind of like when this

is a terrible analogy. But it's like after
was it Hurricane Katrina when George W.

Bush sent ~

Bill Clinton and George HW Bush,

I think it was to go like raise money for
him or something like that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, you're gonna call in the other
statesman and be like,

Tim, ~ I keep getting calls from the White
House.

I haven't been answering them.

Do you think you could get on a plane
right now and go to Washington DC?

Can you?

Why are you still here? Could you please
go to Washington DC?

Just go over there.

And so, I mean, I think it's great for
Ternus that Tim Cook will

be around still handling those things.

And just in the general running of Apple,

like this is again, a difference between
Tim Cook taking over CEO and Ternus.

Tim Cook could not go to Steve Jobs and
ask him a question.

Like, what should I do in this situation?

Or, where did you hide my Vision Pro
inserts?

Where is the toilet paper in the executive
bathroom?

Because I can't find.

Why are there just boxes of Vision Pro in
this office?

Like, why are there thousands of them?

Exactly. I thought we sold a couple
million.

Why are they all in your old office?

Why are they? That's

right. So that is an advantage that John
Turnus has is that if

he has a question or needs help with the
supply chain or whatever,

like Tim Cook is literally here going to
be the chairman of the board probably

for years, like Turnus has that resource.

And that's something to Tim Cook's credit.

He didn't have that opportunity to be able
to ask Steve Jobs and

yet was as successful as he was.

So that speaks to think Tim Cook's ~ just
being a great CEO,

but also optimistic for the next phase
because he's around and gets to

Yeah,

do some of the dirty

less than five years, that's my guess.

Less than five years as chairman of the
board.

Yeah, why would he be around longer than
that?

The guy wants to retire.

If he just,

if he wants to be, I don't know.

guess it's up to him, right?

I

bet I bet. I mean, I bet it's less than
five years.

I don't think that this is a permanent
decision of like,

Okay.

we should just do this for a long time.

Right. Right, right.

I think eventually he'll go spend money or
get involved

in philanthropy or something. I don't
know,

That's true.

like, but I just don't think I you can
mark it down five years from now.

My guess is that it'll be

Okay.

Maybe he'll be in Nike commercials.

You know, he loves Nike. You know what
mean?

Maybe, maybe

him and Jeff Williams are gonna go start
like an athletic,

~ you know, wear clothing brand.

~ Isn't

Tim Cook on the board of directors at Nike
too?

I don't know, but I

think Jeff Williams is on the board of
director of somewhere,

right? Didn't he just join a board?

~

maybe yeah he's served on the board since
like 2005

~ Anyway.

Disney, Disney, Jeff Williams just joined
the board at Disney,

that's right.

See,

these guys are gonna be around.

They're gonna be around. But also,

so the last thing about Tim Cook,

and it'll cover Suruji and some other
lightning round news.

In the town hall that Tim Cook did at
Apple,

and I'm gonna show this article because I
paid $35 just so could read it.

I literally paying.

So if you want to

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That'd be great.

So Tim Cook, this is in the town hall,

he talked about some of the failures
during his tenure.

One, not a failure, but he fondly
remembers the Apple Watch as probably like

his high point. know, he did get,

that was a main product he got to
introduce.

The Apple Watch in 2014, which was the
introduction,

and then it went for sale in 2015.

But Tim Cook was on stage, he got to do
that announcement.

He sees that as a huge win.

Then also he remembers the Apple Maps
launch and missteps like AirPower,

the wireless charging that which never
came to be,

and also the decade long self-driving car
project,

which also never came to be. But when he
talks about Apple Maps,

which again, I think is a good mark of a
CEO,

said, you know, we apologize, this is him
talking,

quote, we apologized for it, Apple Maps,

and literally said, go use these other
apps so they're better than ours.

And that was some humble pie.

but it was the right thing for our users.

And so it's an example of keeping the user
at the center of the decisions we make.

I think that goes to your point.

Like Tim Cook, you he reads those emails
every morning.

He did care about users and heard how they
were using it and what they should do.

But now he says, Cook said, quote,

now we've got the best map app on the
planet.

We learned about persistence and did
exactly the right thing,

having made the mistake. So now we're
adding ads.

No, he didn't say the last part,

but.

I do think it's a little ironic.

He's like, we have the best map app on the
planet and we're gonna monetize it.

Yep, we have accumulated a large enough
base of users now that we

can get eyeballs into money.

That's right, we're gonna show him ads.

But no, was him talking about,

and you know, I still kinda wanted to see
air power.

I wish I could get some kind of air power
prototype on eBay,

but you know. And then Johnny Suruji,

who I think it is hilarious that Mark
Gurman reported that he was almost out,

and then Johnny Suruji leaked the memo
that no,

he's not going anywhere, and now he's been
elevated,

maybe to help him stay around,

maybe to encourage him to stay,

but Apple's chief hardware officer.

So he's gonna be around for a little while
making those great ~ chips

and all the like. So that's good.

Yeah, I mean,

Chinese Ruiji is one of the most important
people at Apple because Apple Silicon,

Apple Silicon, Apple Silicon, whatever,

Yeah, yeah,

is such a critical piece of their
strategy.

I mean, I'm sitting here with a MacBook
Neo.

It's running full blown Mac OS on an
iPhone chip and not even a new iPhone
chip,

That's right. That's right. Yeah.

an old iPhone chip. And it's phenomenal.

Right. Yeah.

Like it's incredible. So yeah,

keep the guy around as long as possible.

Heave the guy around. And I will link
Gruber's article as well.

He talks a lot about Tim Cook and Ternus.

And one of the points he makes,

a part of Tim Cook's legacy that will
probably not get a lot of air time,

is that there were no recalls or major
product failures under his tenure.

And there's a great video from the Artemis
II moon flyby where they took

a photo of the Earth with the iPhone.

And it was the zoom. And two...

Tim Cook, Greg Jaspiak, they didn't tweet
about the iPhones being

on the spaceship until they came back and
were safe.

And as soon as they got out of that pod in
the Pacific,

they hit tweet. And they sent a tweet
like,

hey, we're so glad they took the iPhones
on this trip.

Which, again, smart, just optics or
whatever.

Yeah, you don't want the

thing to burn up on reentry and have been
touting how cool it was that you

got to be a part of it.

That.

That. And so, you know, they were smart
with that.

But I think part of the reason NASA put
iPhones on that spaceship

is because while Samsung makes great
products and for a long time has

not had these kind of issues, there were a
couple of Samsung phones that like blew

up. I think one even on a plane like
caught a fire.

Also, this

just occurs to me that the biggest scandal
surrounding Samsung's cameras

is that if you took a picture of the moon,

Right. Oh,

it just replaced it with a generic photo
of the moon.

I didn't even think of that. Now I wish
they had brought it to see like,

it generate an AI photo when we're
literally right next to it?

What is it gonna do?

Oh, that would have been hilarious.

I do think that this does explain the
timing.

If you're Tim Cook, and NASA just
published pictures with your most recent
product,

your flagship product, the entire world is
watching and paying attention to this.

I don't know that there's anything more
you can accomplish in your role.

I'm done. I did it.

That's fair.

That's fair. Yeah, the iPhone literally
went to and around the moon.

So anyway, I'm optimistic about the next
phase of Apple.

I don't expect some kind of crazy like
innovation.

This like I don't think you're going to
have AR glasses in September.

You know, I don't think we're going to see
that.

But I'm bullish on Apple moving a little
quicker,

maybe in areas like AI and to,

you know, try to do some new stuff like
let's innovate on some

new product categories and

Yeah, I'm excited to see what Ternus does.

That's it.

Yeah, I will say the keyboards.

Those were recalled multiple times.

Well, yeah, they fixed it and then it's
like,

with Butterfly Keyboard.

oops, and then they fixed it and it's
like,

oops, and then they just had the whole
keyboard replacement program for like
years.

Yeah

I don't have any inside information on
this,

but I'm gonna just blame Johnny Ive and
say Johnny Ive required something

and so turned his head to make it happen,

but I

I'm just saying you said there was no
recalls on and I think the keyboard

is a pretty big exception to that.

It's a fairly important piece of I mean,

Sure.

as someone who uses keyboard all day long,

is pretty important.

Yeah, that's fair.

That's fair. But of all, but it didn't
blow up.

You know what mean? No one had a keyboard
blow up.

No keyboards caught on fire. All right.

Touche.

Let's do a lightning round of stuff and
then we got to talk about your app.

I do want to mention Chad GPT and OpenAI
announced GPT images 2.0 and

say what you will about image generation.

You know, I'm not all that, but every once
in a while I do put

a thumbnail through an AI system to see
like how it can adjust the image.

And so I did a test with 2.0 and I will
say it is markedly improved.

so this was a shortcuts thumbnail that I
never used this thumbnail to be clear.

I used a different one, but this was what
ChatGPT gave me as an image before.

So before images 2.0, which looks a little
like a little crazy.

Like, let's be honest, I don't look great
in this image,

but I gave the same image and the same
prompt to GPT images 2.0.

And I got this, which was much better.

The text is sharper and clearer.

It didn't garble any text. I don't look
very shiny or round.

like Paul Giamatti.

Exactly. Like I look real,

like more real. so GPT images 2.0
debatted.

This was the original image for what it's
worth.

And it's me with just some shortcuts
overlaid.

And there was the prompt. If you want to
see what I did,

I gave it pictures of Gambit and my
picture and told it to do with the thing.

And yeah, GPT images did a much better job
than whatever was before it.

just had the AI image,

just weird things with a face,

makes it super smooth and like,

yeah, it's weird.

You have to tell it to use accurate skin
textures.

That's a real thing. I mean,

is that a thing? You just tell it that?

Well, I, okay.

I'm not saying it would have made this
picture better,

but it is a real thing.

Okay, well you can see like even in this
one like the messages bubble

and the search all messages It's like what
happened there It's like

a boxing glove and then it broke this
paper clip for the URL

and it misspelled transparency Like it it
took the time to misspell transparency,

even though I had it spelled right but in
the new one It's spelled correctly

and there's no garbled messages icon.

So

I

mean, that is how I feel sometimes when I
get a message that I just want

to punch it.

Maybe that was it. It was subconscious.

Yeah, so that's GPT 2.0. Also Google had
its and also chat

GPT announced codex powered workspace
agents I was a little hesitant about this
news

because apparently this is replacing
custom GPTs And that's one of

the main reasons why I use custom GPTs is
because I've trained one to help

me with YouTube titles and descriptions
and so custom GPTs go away in favor

of this kind of like business workspace
agent use case

I might just move away from chat GPT
entirely,

but that's just my thought on that.

So do you still use your custom GPT?

So it stops. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, I do.

All right. Anyway, that's cause that that
Google teased the Gemini powered series.

So they had their cloud keynote,

Google cloud. And in the keynote,

they literally put the Apple logo on the
screen and says work.

And they said, quote, we're collaborating
with Apple as their preferred cloud

provider to develop the next generation of
Apple foundation models based

on Gemini technology.

and they said that later this year we
should see the Gemini powered Apple

Intelligence features. So it seems like
iOS 27,

we're gonna see this stuff. Hopefully.

Yeah, they

That is interesting that Apple allowed
them to announce.

I mean, that's an announcement,

right? There's two pieces of that
announcement.

There's an announcement here.

One, develop the next generation of Apple
foundation models based

on Gemini technology, which is different
than just we're going to just slap Gemini

into Siri, right? I don't exactly know
what it means,

That is true.

but that is a distinction that is that is
more than I think what we have assumed

was going to happen. They are developing
foundation models based on Gemini.

Right.

Now maybe that just means they're going to
like white label Gemini

and they're going to call it whatever.

The other one is Apple doesn't typically
allow other companies

to pre-announce that they're going to
release a thing this year.

Now I think we all assume that that was
going to be the case,

but Apple has not said specifically,

I don't think that they were coming to
Siri this year.

I think they just said it's coming.

I think

in the deal that Apple let Google tweet
about earlier this year,

I think they said later this year.

I think that was the

Maybe you're right. That may be true.

And I think you're you're right,

because everyone assumed that that meant
like 26 dot three dot one was going

to have Gemini and I was like,

not going to come before but BWC.

I remember we had that conversation on
this podcast.

Yes, yeah,

yeah that we did. So yeah, anyway,

google said it again. So later this year
really feels like ios 27.

We'll see that amazon is investing another
25 billion dollars in anthropic

as part of its infrastructure deal again
anthropic sponsored earlier

in this episode as claude, but amazon
getting more invested there

Listen, Jeff Bezos,

Yeah

I have an app now, if you want.

huh.

If you want 25, I'll give you a discount.

Yeah?

I don't even need 25 billion.

Well, look at that. OK. Well, yeah.

They're just saying, just saying.

to saying.

Also, SpaceX is apparently landed a deal
to acquire Cursor,

which is something that developers and
people use.

It's a kind of competitor to Cloud Code
and OpenAI Codecs for developing apps.

And so they struck a deal. They might not
go through or sign the deal until SpaceX

hits IPO, which apparently this deal might
delay that.

So they're going to wait on it,

maybe hit IPO first and then it

Finally acquire... ~ yeah.

Cursor? It's weird.

I don't know. This is weird

because I mean, cursor is literally just
like a fork of VS code,

which is an open source piece of software
you can use for free.

Like, I don't understand why you would pay
that much money for this other than

Why didn't they just fork it themselves?

it has a user base. You're just paying for
a user base of people who are using.

the name.

I don't I don't feel like there's a lot of
stickiness there.

It's probably just to say it is part of
SpaceX,

which SpaceX is now like the parent
company,

right? XAI and X are underneath it,

Correct.

and SpaceX is like the thing. Okay,

the other's that. And then finally,

before we get to Jason's app, Therese is
adding a live chats feature to the app.

Listen, I did think Clubhouse when I first
saw this announcement,

but what it is...

happens is like certain creators is not
going to be open to everyone

but certain creators and influential names
can basically start what looks like

a group message like a group chat in
threads and a certain number of people

can join and participate in this group
chat by sending images or text

can react to messages with emoji and then
after a certain point it would

cut it off so you can't actually interact
but you could just watch it i listen

Meta is clearly good at engagement and
getting people to engage with their

platforms. And frankly, I think this might
be a great feature.

Not great as in like, I want to use this
feature,

but great as in like getting people
engaged in live events on their platform.

Because that is one thing where even
during like live events like the Oscars,

which nobody watches, but like the Super
Bowl or whatever,

like those kinds of events.

There's still a bifurcation of like where
people go to post about it.

And I still find a lot of people default
to X,

especially people like news anchors or
sports people and athletes.

Like there's still that and there's not as
much activity during those live events

like the Super Bowl on threads.

It has grown for sure. But I think this is
a play where threads is wants

to be the place where when there's a big
cultural moment happening,

like the NBA championships.

or the World Series or World Cup is coming
up.

And so probably all those things is trying
to become that live event platform.

And I think it probably has a good chance
to do it,

if this is any good.

I don't know, you want to start a live
chat,

Jason?

I really don't. And I think that

the way you explained it, this is not your
fault.

But it made no sense. And I was thinking
you're what you're about to

Really?

say after that is meta is very good at
making product decisions that just make

no sense. Like I don't actually understand
what's happening.

If you look at

this image, which I'll put as the chapter
art,

and you'll see in every app except Apple
Podcasts,

or if you support the show,
join.primarytech.fm.

But if you're watching on the video,

you see this middle screenshot where,

my word, what just happened? TechCrunch
just freaked out because I hit Command+.

This center screenshot, I feel like,

shows what this thing is going to be.

Yeah, so people

are just going to be able to watch you
have a group chat on threads,

which is already a thing you can do on
threads.

but it's gonna be hosted by someone.

So if they get someone like, I don't know,

Stephen Curry or Shaq, like if they could
get Shaq.

Rebbets death curry

and Shaq can just post together on threads
already.

But if threads gives them a bunch of
money,

Well that's the thing.

that's the thing. Then they can do that or
like some music artist doing this during

the Grammys. Maybe, you know, maybe,

maybe that's something. So I don't know.

We'll see. We'll see if this turns out to
be a thing.

you know, men always want to figure out
how to engage people more,

get people on the services.

Meta

is always willing to spend money to get
you to spend more of your time

on a platform so it can make more money.

That is true.

That is true. All right, I'm going talk
about how I got scammed

in the bonus episode, which I did like
literally get scammed

and literally paid somebody money I wasn't
supposed to.

And it has nothing to do with my app,

No, it has nothing to do with Jason's app.

I just want to be clear.

But I'm literally running Jason's app
right now.

I'm using it for a couple of days.

I'm going to share it. This is a live
picture of Jason's app.

Jason, tell me about the app. How's this
experience gone?

You're actually testing this. People have
downloaded this and tested it.

I don't actually love your layout,

Why not? What do I need to do?

that's okay. That's okay.

I would make the notes a little bit
narrower so that you could see more

of your note. I'm sorry, the note.

Oh, sure, sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Yeah, that list. There you go.

That's a little bit better. So yeah,

that's fine. Okay.

I mean, listen, I explained this before
and I actually wrote an article this
morning

that talked about how every note app I've
ever used is like missing

the most important thing, which is notes
apps are basically been designed

to capture all the information,

but they don't.

come with context, right? Which is for me
a really important thing.

If you take notes in as many meetings as I
do,

having the context of syncing it with your
calendar is super useful.

I don't want to have to my calendar open
over here,

my notes app over here, my to-do app over
here,

whatever. I want to be able to take notes.

And so I spent a lot of time using a lot
of notes apps,

and a lot of them are very good.

A lot of them are beautifully designed.

I use Ulysses as a writing app.

That doesn't change. That's where I'm
going to write stuff.

VAS.

But what I wanted is, OK, when I sit down
in a meeting,

sit down on a call. I want to just like
click my calendar,

make a new note from this. Now I've got
all that context and then I

can write all the note, whatever I want.

And then I could just, now Steven has not
unlocked the pro features,

which he should have a code to do that.

I know, I should, yeah.

But ~ you can just click the, the little
summarize button and it'll give

you a ~ summary, an Apple intelligence.

I finally found the one thing Apple
intelligence is good at.

And it is to summarize your notes and then
give you all the action items from that.

So it'll go through and it'll look and be
like,

~ it looks like you agreed to follow up on
this.

And it looks like this person agreed to do
this and it'll show them to you.

And then you can just send them to things
or reminders or OmniFocus or Todoist.

Yes.

Like literally just with one click,

it'll just do that for you. it's so that
sort of like that flow through from your

And you can.

calendar to your meeting notes to the
action steps.

And it's so cool, like you just give it
access to your calendars.

And so all my events are here on the
right.

You can customize what calendars are
viewed,

which I was about to send it as a feature
request,

but I was like, let me make sure I could
just do this in the settings.

And I could, which was ideal. So I turned
off all the calendars.

Yep. Yep. Turn them on or off.

Yep.

You can right click an event and create a
new note linked to that event

or link that event to whatever note is
open live,

like in your viewer. Now I just seeing all
the Apple intelligence

and summarize features. I think this is
really cool.

I already had a couple of feature
requests,

but you've been like, there's a test
flight that exists.

You have some people on it. what is it,

like, some of the feedback if you can
share,

like, good feedback, questions?

Yeah, I will.

Let me one thing I was going to say that I
missed the other feature.

Yeah, yeah.

This is the one that's the hardest right
now is you can actually then just chat
with

your notes and it's all on device.

Hmm.

So, for example, I can ask it,

when is my next recording? Well,

because I can see my calendar,

my notes, it's like, you're recording
tomorrow morning primary tech at this
time.

Or I can say, ~ so I was I was producing a
podcast on Tuesday and I

had made some notes.

feedback I needed to give the person who
was hosting it,

I didn't, wasn't, we didn't have a
conversation afterwards.

So I could literally just say,

what did I need to, what did I need to
talk to so and so about?

And it's like, here's the note,

here are the three things you said you
needed to talk to them about,

and it just surfaces that information for
you.

So that's really useful as well.

So your question, what has been the
feedback?

Well, it took me a while to figure out
iCloud sync.

So it will sync across your devices now.

That was super broken at first,

was very complicated, was able to figure
it out.

~ It also the other feature requests were
like importing all of your

to do's and that's not going to happen
because I don't that's I'm not going

to like this is not a very good to do app.

This is a very good app to help you figure
out action items from your notes

and then put them in your to do app.

Now it does actually have a to do section.

Like if you have to do is if you've either
created them as like a checklist item or

had the Apple intelligence summary create
them for you.

It will show them all in a window you can
open.

Like that's fine. You can look at those.

And the reason that's useful is you could
right click on them and create

a new note from that to do. And it'll
actually create a new note link back to
the,

to the original note where you created
that to do.

And it goes both ways. So like if you pull
up the original note,

it's like, yeah, you made a note about
this to do over here.

So that's really useful, but it is not
meant for like managing your task list.

It's not going to be great at that.

Right, right, right, right.

So no, I'm not going to let it import all
your reminders notes.

or reminders because I just feel like it's
not very good at that.

That's not the point.

That's not what it's for.

But you've also sent me a screenshot.

I won't show the screenshot, but of an
iPhone app also running.

there is an iPhone app that exists.

So have you got an iCloud sync to work?

You're still working on it.

Yeah, it

syncs from the phone. It syncs between
that Macs.

It'll sync from and the thing about the
iPhone app is it is designed to make

it much easier to just quickly do notes.

So it's like I'm in this meeting and I
just want to record it for example,

because this will let you record.

It is not it's not like an app like
granola or auto auto where that's

its primary purpose is like recording but

Yeah,

it will record audio and it uses the Apple
speech recognition,

which is actually

really good, you don't even need to use
whisper kit.

If you use that and transcribe it for you
in real time,

or you could just be like I took him with
the note,

you know, the audio, what is it called?

Memo's audio memos, voice memos.

Voice memos.

Yeah, and drop that in there and it'll
just transcribe it for you.

~ But the on the phone, like what I
imagine is you're more likely to just

be like set this thing down, let it
record,

then it'll just drop right into a note on
your Mac and it still has

the the calendar sync, it still has the
same features.

Weirdly, the ask your notes feature works
better and faster on the iPhone.

It's using the same stuff. I don't really
know why that is,

Interesting.

but I gotta sort that out a little bit
first,

so.

So are you going back and forth with
Claude?

Like if you find a bug or you want to
tweak something,

like are you going back to Xcode and
asking Claude to do a thing,

having it do it, build it again,

test it again? Like are you doing that
process?

Yep. so yeah, most of what I've built in
this,

I've used Claude code to help me do
because I don't know Swift or Swift UI.

I've learned a ton of it. I've learned to
troubleshoot it.

Right? Right? Yeah. That's good.

It has done an amazing job of basically
everything I've asked except

for the iCloud sync. had to figure most of
that out on my own.

~ I've been using so I've never used
Claude code in the terminal.

I've only ever used it in the app and it
works fantastic to do that.

But there are definitely times when it's
like,

okay,

this is done, this is done, this done,

go ahead and build and run and I'll get
the same error.

And I literally just take a screenshot,

drop it in there and be like, still broke.

That's the, and it'll fix it. It'll fix
it.

Yeah, that's what I'll do. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Like I don't even have to, I don't even
know what's wrong.

I don't know how to explain what's wrong.

I just drop it in there. So I have had
someone who's looked at basically

the entire code base for me. Well,

really?

I just want to make sure that as you go
through and you make all these changes,

are you creating weird edge cases that
could cause other,

Right.

listen, there's like,

no malware, like this is a notes app,

No, no, Yeah.

right? And it doesn't send your notes
anywhere.

I went back and forth on that a lot
because there are much more capable

LLM tools that you could use,

Hmm.

but I don't want to send people's notes to
OpenAI because then I got

to deal with the fact that you're sending
your notes to OpenAI.

All That's good, yep.

I have considered, and this is something
that I may do down the road where

you could give people the option of
downloading a better local model.

Like so Gemma 3, one of the small,

Right.

you know, the 2 billion parameter one.

It probably won't be significantly faster
than Apple intelligence

and Apple intelligence is like three
months is going to just be Gemma.

Like I might as well wait and see what
happens at WWDC before I decide what to
do.

That is true, yeah. Just wait.

Yeah.

~ but when I've used like either open AI
or,

~ Gemini through the API,

it actually does a much, much better job,

but that's what you would expect,

but you have to send your notes to those
places to do it.

And I feel like it's, it is good enough
for what people would expect,

which is

identifying to do's and summarizing
meetings,

that it's the benefit of being able to
say,

I don't have access to any of your stuff.

No one has access to any of your stuff.

It's all happening on device is a much
more useful way to do that.

Good. Yeah.

This is good, man, I'm excited for you and
for this.

two other things, the name and
availability.

So the name, you want to mention some of
the names you're going between,

you just want to say the name of

Did we say the name already on this
episode?

Maybe it was in the pre-show. Yeah.

I don't think we said it, we said it in
the pre-show,

we said it in the pre-show, but not yet.

Let's save the name. If you're a member,

Okay. Okay.

you can go back and listen to the
pre-show.

I'm 99.9 % sure I'm going to stick with
the name.

Go listen to the unedited feed,

by the way, that sounds good.

So that's fine. I I've bought a domain.

Okay, okay, okay, good. did you?

I've done all those things. But I'll tell
you about it when we're done recording.

that's great. Wait, was the dot com
available?

Okay,

okay, okay.

But, ~ and then I, and I've built the
website for it,

all of that stuff. I just have to figure
out,

I'm hoping that it'll launch pretty soon.

Like I'm hoping to be able to launch,

but what I need to do is get a little bit
more feedback from beta tester.

So if you're on the beta, use the heck out
of it.

If you would send me a lot of feedback.

Yeah.

So I make sure to know like what actually
is,

or is not working out other people's
devices.

My hope is to be able to release both apps
at the same time.

Yeah. We'll see if I, we'll see if I feel
like that.

with the iPhone app.

Do you want more

beta testers?

I can send you the beta. Yeah,

do I want more beta testers in general?

~ If everybody who signed up to be on the
beta started using it,

I would be in a good shape. I do not need
hundreds of people sending

me feedbacks on these types of things,

You don't? Okay, say okay.

but I have a good number of people on the
beta.

So I appreciate all of that. ~ But I may
need to have the iPhone app beta tested

as well. So we'll see about that.

But I'm probably going to just use the
same group of people because it's just
easier

Okay.

to not have to onboard people who haven't
used it.

Yeah.

I had to

create a like a welcome flow so that
people would know what to do because it's
going

to ask you. It has to get one of the nice
things is that it doesn't.

You don't have to log into your calendars.

I don't want to mess with any of that.

So it just uses if you're logged into an
account on your Mac,

Right, right.

it'll just share that information with
event kit.

It'll just use it. Right.

I think it's called where it'll just let
you say,

do you want to give access to your
calendars and it'll just show your
calendar,

right? You don't have to give me any
credentials,

any of that kind of stuff. The other thing
it'll do,

it'll ask you permission to let it get
information from other apps.

The only reason it asks you that is you
can just import out,

import your notes. Like you can export all
your notes from the notes app

Right.

or Bayer or Craft or whatever.

And then you can just import all those so
that you like,

it's not super useful to have to like,

I have all my new notes here. All my old
notes are over there.

No, need your own ones.

You can just have them all in one place.

And then you can do all the same features,

get summaries, get to do's, get like ask
the app what you wanna know.

Yeah.

It's this super fun

And availability I'm hoping like soon.

I'm really excited for you. This is cool.

And so because you already got the test
flight through Apple

I assume actually submitting it to the app
store would be like you can

do that like you're you're right there

Yeah, it's

all it's so the test flight, you have to
upload the app to App Store Connect

in order to do a test flight. You just
don't have it submitted

Right. Yeah.

for distribution at this point.

It does have to go through App Store
review in order to go through a test
flight,

but it is a less rigorous App Store
review.

I believe they're just I don't know if
they're just like making sure it's

Right.

not malware or making sure that it doesn't
significantly copy some kind

of feature or something like that.

Like, I don't know. to do the biggest
barrier for me at this point was OK.

I have to think through like app
screenshots,

marketing language, all that stuff to get
it ready.

Yeah.

And that's the thing I'm working on pretty
hard right now so that I

can get it available. And I think the
other piece is like,

I need people to have confidence.

To be clear, I only made this app because
I needed an app.

And then I was like, this is super better
than I thought it was going to be.

And a lot of people were like,

Yeah.

could I try your app? And I was like,

sure. And it's like, well, can I make it
available?

Well, the standard between I just needed a
thing and

Yeah.

make it available for other people,

there's a huge gap between there.

And Cloud Code was absolutely able to get
me to make the app I wanted to use.

red.

There's a little more work I needed to do
for make this available to other people.

Yeah.

so depending on how long it takes to get
through that,

then I'll release it.

Man, I'm excited. This is gonna be super
fun.

We will both have an app in the App Store.

Me, my coffee finder. But yours will
actually be useful.

That's right.

I think it's cool. I'll be using it.

I asked you for a bare notes import.

also, could you build an MCP connector for
Claude Cowork so Claude could just

do stuff to inside the app? I don't even
know.

Maybe ask Claude about that.

MCP connector.

because

one of the things I actually, so I
exported all my bare notes,

I imported them into the app, I almost
said the name,

but I imported them into the app.

I love the name, by the way, love it.

I mean,

by the way, I'm pretty sure that when you
showed a screen,

no, maybe, maybe not when you showed,

No, no, no, no, no.

okay, okay.

Well, when I clicked the pro thing,

~ it did say it there. Okay,

It's fine. It's not a secret. It's fine.

I'm just reserving

okay.

the right that there is a small
possibility I may choose to go with
something else.

So if you were watching, yeah,

I'll let you know. It's fine.

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, only certain to
listen,

It's not a big deal. I'm not trying to be
cagey.

okay.

There are a lot of people. Here's the
thing.

People are like, well, you shouldn't talk
too much about your

app yet because somebody could steal your
idea.

Fine. Steal it like I could stop working
on it.

Yes.

If someone else would make the only reason
I'm doing this is no one else seemed

to care enough to build this in.

Right. Right.

What I wanted was I've been using the
notes app.

Apple's

Stock notes app has been my default notes
app for a very long time.

Yeah.

I've tried every notes app. If Apple had
built these features in,

we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So it'd be a more boring podcast,

Alright.

but if my life would have been easier,

I wouldn't have spent two weeks.

Like I probably have 50 hours into this
right now,

Yeah.

which I know for a developer is like,

Right, we're working on it. That's not all
I thinking.

that's like nothing, dude. But I've
realized that like the key to making a
good app,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

like I'm going to make some people mad.

Fine. But we had this conversation when we
talked about like

the way Apple works, right? The key to
making a good app is having a very good
idea

and knowing what the edge cases are of
like,

no, it shouldn't behave this way.

No, it should behave this way.

Right. Right.

No, this is what someone would expect it
to do here.

No, stop doing it that way. I don't know
that the key to making a good

app is being able to write a lot of code,

right? Because I could have just paid a
person to write some code,

but all I wanted was an app for myself,

Right, right.

right? Now, like I said, before it goes
out to the world,

Yeah, yeah,

I'll make sure someone who knows what's
happening has looked at this app.

looks at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's good.

All right. Well, I'm super excited for it
to be out there,

but you'll hear about it again soon.

You'll about it again soon. So we're going
to go record a bonus episode about

how I got scammed. And if you want to hear
the bonus episode,

our pre-show where we talked about Jason
Zappen,

talked about the name there too,

ad free version of this show, Primary Tech
Daily.

You get all of that when you go to
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I don't know. Just tell us something.

Tell us something about how you use your
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And we'll figure that out. But anyway,

I'm going go talk about how I was gamed.

But thanks for listening. Thanks for
watching.

We'll catch you next time.